When did copies become homages?

18760 Views 537 Replies 144 Participants Last post by Fahoo Forays, 4 mo ago

zymphad

Discussion Starter · 5 mo ago

When did copies become homages? I'm curious, how this came about? To me a homage is a watch that makes reference to another iconic watch, inspiration or repurposing a desirable feature or design. For example a watch with Oyster case and sterile dial with sword hands but with Fifty Fathom like bezel, to me that would be a homage to Fifty Fathom and possibly vintage military dive watches.

But I'm curious how the WUS or watch community has come to accept copies like Steinhart, Invicta Pro Diver, or Tissell Explorer as being homages, when in fact they are copies. Homage would be pay respecting to the original. This is just ripping off the original design.

I understand some people don't like homages of any kind. I'm OK with a watch that combines features from others, and apply some flair of their own. But I see so many straight copies that are called homages and I don't understand it, since they are clearly not homages, they are copies.

And some people also seem to not able to understand a copy and replica are no the same thing. I"m not saying Steinhart or Davaso make Rolex replicas, but they certainly are making Rolex copies.

To me calling these watches homages is an insult to other watches that are actually homages, as it puts a watch with interesting character of their own in the same basket with these lame copies.

Reactions: 5

1 - 19 of 538 Posts

SpeedFreek67

· #26 · 5 mo ago

This article, from nearly 10 years ago, uses the term "close 1-to-1 homages" to describe design copies.

wornandwound.com

Homage vs. Replica vs. Counterfeit

This article is a discussion of the terms homage, replica and counterfeit watch, and the implications behind them.

wornandwound.com

Reactions: 5

SpeedFreek67

· #41 · 5 mo ago

Yeardley said:
When the people that buy copies realized they felt ashamed and needed to call them something more palatable/acceptable than copies. "Homage" was a nice French-origin word that made buyers feel good about themselves again.

Well I can only speak for myself here, but I don't feel ashamed at all when sporting a design copy with its own branding. Then again, I used own what is known in guitar circles as a "Stratocaster copy" and it was a very good quality guitar. I own a very nice M65 styled field jacket that is copy of a famous design. My jeans aren't made by Levi Strauss, but they look very similar. I think I have a pair of Aviator sunglasses somewhere that were not made by Bausch & Lomb.

Reactions: 5

SpeedFreek67

· #63 · 5 mo ago

Fahoo Forays said:
There's Fender copies that are equal or superior to MIA Fender (Sadowsky, Grosh, Lull, Atelier Z, DIY components from Warmoth, older Tokai) and there are those that aren't (too many to name). My jeans aren't all made by Levi Strauss, but they cost about the same- there's no incentive to pass on Levi's to save a few bucks or because I can't afford Levi's.

This, OTOH...

View attachment 17145437

is nothing but a cash grab on the part of the maer and nakedly shameless behavior on the part of the buyer. Hey, if Omega doesn't make 'em anymore, you have to find a used one. That's okay. Or maybe you just don't get to own one. That's okay, too.

So you gave your view on the Ploprof copy, but what do you think about the various Strat copies?

SpeedFreek67

· #97 · 5 mo ago

See, now I completely disagree about this "flexing" thing, or wanting to look like you have an expensive watch, to others.

I buy the watches I like for my own amusement alone, because I like the design or the features, and definitely not because they might "look expensive".

I know some people buy expensive watches to "flex", as a show of wealth. But this idea that people buy copies of great designs to flex makes no sense to me.

I like the design of the Seiko "Willard" and I wanted a green watch with sapphire crystal, a movement I could regulate, a ceramic bezel and great lume so I bought a green Steeldive SD1970. There is absolutely no "flexing" to anyone involved.

Reactions: 5

SpeedFreek67

· #115 · 5 mo ago

It might also be worth considering that a lot of people don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of watches and may not even be aware that their watch is copying someone else's design.

Here is my current stock of watches, shown in the order I bought them. As far as I know, there are only 2 design copies (the green Willard, which is my favourite watch, and a "pro diver"). Are there any other copies in there, or what about true homages taking certain elements from other watches? I'm particularly interested in the last four (my more recent buys) seeing as you are all here....

Watch Analog watch Photograph White Light

See less See more

Reactions: 1

SpeedFreek67

· #189 · 5 mo ago

To be honest, the only reason the term homage is used so widely for copied designs is because people hear other people calling them homages. If nobody started that trend (at least 10 years ago, it seems), I for one would always refer to my Willard copy as a copy (albeit in a colour the original never came in) just like I used to call my Strat copy (it was an Ibanez version of a Fender guitar) a copy. But the term homage has gained so much traction that arguing against the term has become a futile endeavour - the people arguing against the term are the only people who care.

Designs will always be copied. Earlier in this thread I cited my M65 field jacket, jeans and aviator sunglasses as examples (and no, I do not walk around looking like Robert De Niro in Taxi Driver!

)

Watches are either treated as tools or jewellery, but I have never heard anyone complaining about someone's vernier calipers, spanners or screwdrivers looking like another manufacturers or complaining the same about someone's earrings, pendant or ring (but perhaps I just don't move in those circles).

As for that "flexing" thing, where some people claim copy wearers want to look like they are wearing an expensive watch and question the character of "homage wearers", I think that might in some cases more reflect their own reasons for wearing their expensive watch rather than what some guy who bought a $100 Steeldive does. I certainly don't "flex". Most people seeing a watch on someone else can't tell if its a $50 Casio Duro or a $10,000 Rolex.

Then again I may be wrong, as I am posting on a forum where people post pixellated screenshots taken from TV shows asking what watch some actor is wearing.

It's a funny old game, this hobby.

See less See more

Reactions: 5

SpeedFreek67

· #224 · 5 mo ago

jdub said:
Yeap absolutely fine with it.

Ain't no one with a off the shelf movt buying it to pretend to people in a bar they have a 10k watch on from 2 feet away.

Which is exactly the reason why people buy the the Ali express stuff.

That might be what people wearing a Rolex do, wanting everyone in the bar to know they are wearing a Rolex, or people who buy replicas with Rolex printed on the dial - pretending to do the same.

But you might just find to your surprise that what people who buy "homage" watches do, is just wear a watch they like, knowing it is made by a different company to the original, because they like the design. And that's the end of the story, despite what you might want to project onto it.

Do you think everyone wears their watch to show it off to other people in bars? Is that why you wear a watch? Do you think everyone who wears a Steinhart, a Squale, an Invicta Pro Diver etc does so to try to pretend to others they are wearing a Rolex, because I am sure you will that is not the case at all.

I suppose you also think that anyone wearing camoflage is pretending to be in the army too, rather than just liking the look. Or anyone wearing a leather bikers jacket is pretending to be a biker.

It takes all sorts, I suppose. I have quite a few watches and only 2 of them are "homages". I don't wear any of them to show off to people in bars. I mean, what sort of person does that anyway?

See less See more

Reactions: 5

SpeedFreek67

· #230 · 5 mo ago

jdub said:

Is that the face of a person who doesn't understand the concept that not everyone wears a watch as a display of status?

See less See more

Reactions: 4

SpeedFreek67

· #237 · 5 mo ago

Fahoo Forays said:
Plenty of homages do look like a specific brand that people DO wear as a display of status.

Of course. But that doesn't mean people who wear those homages are pretending to have status. They just like the look of the watch. It really is as simple as that.

It seems as if the people who DO wear watches as a display of status are labouring under the misconception that everyone acts the same as they do. Bizarre.

It feels like when homages are mentioned, some of these guys enter the chat:

Nose Cheek Smile Muscle Human body

See less See more

Reactions: 5

SpeedFreek67

· #248 · 5 mo ago

jdub said:
Nope not at all, but anyone with a brain cell knows that those buying 1 to 1 replicas minus the original brand name are doing just that.

There are two of us in the last page of this thread telling you otherwise. Please listen. We wear what we like the look of, because we like it, and not to show it off to other people. Anyone who sees me, the way I dress, would know I am not the type to show status - I am an old rocker dude, an ex punk rocker and I look like one. I am not trying to pretend to be a rich dude by wearing a Steeldive Willard copy.

Reactions: 5

SpeedFreek67

· #262 · 5 mo ago

Fahoo Forays said:
Precisely. Apparently, the design language of a Hamilton Khaki or Vostok Amphibia is too unattractive to copy. I own both, own multiple Vostoks.

Tandorio: "Hold my beer..."

Watch Analog watch Photograph White Light

See less See more

Reactions: 5

SpeedFreek67

· #274 · 5 mo ago

jdub said:
Funny isn't, that those into homages only seem to like the expense looking watches right.

Not true. My favourite watch is my Green Steeldive "Willard" SD1970, a design copy (in a different colourway) of a Seiko 6105. The "homage" version came out before Seiko decided to reissue the "Willard" in 2020, so perhaps the popularity of the homage version was part of the reason that Seiko reissued their own version, who knows?

Reactions: 2

SpeedFreek67

· #279 · 5 mo ago

Fahoo Forays said:
Well, I admit to being wrong, but I still don't get it. Real Hamiltons are affordable and available.

Well the Tandorio has a sapphire crystal, 200m WR, screwdown crown and is available with an NH35 or a PT5000 movement for £60 or £85 respectively...

Reactions: 2

SpeedFreek67

· #300 · 5 mo ago

jdub said:
See, this is level of this forum now. It's the original owners that are derided and those that wear knock offs are the high and mighty.

Man this place has gone to the dogs.

I don't think that the original owners would be derided at all, if they didn't come into threads about homage watches and deride the people who wear homage watches/design copies/knock-offs. If people could just let other people enjoy things that don't affect them, the world would be a much nicer place.

Reactions: 5

SpeedFreek67

· #336 · 5 mo ago

Earthjade said:
I'd be interested to know how many non-hoarders out there have actually kept one of their knock-off/replica/copy/homage watches for more than 1-2 years.

Well here are two people who posted recently and have had an Invicta Pro-Diver for 20 years..

Here and here

Reactions: 1

SpeedFreek67

· #342 · 5 mo ago

Earthjade said:
They look near-new for 20 year old watches. Makes me wonder how much they've actually been worn.
I suspect these guys could be hoarders and these watches sit in their hoard-box most of the time.

Hoarders? Or people with a collection of watches they rotate through, like a lot of members here?

One of them posted in a WRUW thread, so I think we can safely assume they wear it.

{Full disclosure: This post was made by someone who has been wearing a "homage" watch the past few days, as part of their rotation of watches}

Reactions: 4

SpeedFreek67

· #404 · 5 mo ago

Klip88 said:
I don’t get why people think it’s all ego stroking? I enjoy my watch simple as that, and regardless of patent expirations homages are cheap copies that have no creativity of their own.

I have no axes to grind in your above argument, but I wear homages for the same reason - I enjoy my watch, simple as that. I buy designs I like, for me to enjoy. I have a couple of homages and a majority that arent.

A problem in this whole thread is the assumption we homage wearers get from from other users here that we wear them to "flex", pretending to wear a more expensive watch in the hopes that people in bars will think we are projecting wealth. It was discussed earlier in this thread. That argument (not yours) comes from people who wear watches to stroke their own ego, and believe all watch wearers are the same. We aren't all the same, and your comment illustrates that.

Reactions: 5

SpeedFreek67

· #468 · 5 mo ago

I would like to point out that the way a discussion develops and how people reply to comments is a function of the comments they are replying to.

If you go back to page 1 of this thread, it is not the people questioning the character of people who wear expensive watches who appear and comment first. No - it is the people making negative statements about the character of people who wear design copies. This causes push-back, and defines the way the discussion develops.

Reactions: 5

SpeedFreek67

· #517 · 5 mo ago (Edited)

Klip88 said:
In the literal sense of Tylenol vs supermarket brand sure, it’s conjecture. What is not conjecture is that higher end brands have better material sciences, better QC, and more skilled labor than whatever homage brand we’re talking about. A user even provided video saying while not terrible for the price, still no comparison. You’re arguing for the sake of arguing so I’ll concede as I am tired of this stupid fight, Steinhart and San Martin are just as well built as Rolex, and Omega!

I think the argument got sidetracked with the material difference between branded drugs and their generic equivalents. That was, as you said, a poor analogy perhaps.

And nobody was arguing that there is no material difference between Steinhart, San Martin et. al., and Rolex or Omega. The comment you replied to stated there definitely was a difference, but asked if the amount of difference equated to the higher asking price of the famous brands.

Of course a Rolex is better than a San Martin. But is it 50 times better?

Reactions: 2

1 - 19 of 538 Posts