[slorollin]

Admittedly, I've fallen behind and missed 20 or so pages. It must have been decided by now.

Soooooo.........What's the verdict?

 

[snowman40]

To argue there is no difference in controls from company to company is silly.

But the differences do not equal the cost to the buyer.

Everyone knows the law of diminishing returns.

A Rolex is undeniably better than a San Martin, but not tangibly better by the factor of the cost.

And unless you have some evidence that Tylenol is tangibly different to a no name version of the same drug, your argument is full of holes.

M

 

[Klip88]

But the differences do not equal the cost to the buyer.

Everyone knows the law of diminishing returns.

A Rolex is undeniably better than a San Martin, but not tangibly better by the factor of the cost.

And unless you have some evidence that Tylenol is tangibly different to a no name version of the same drug, your argument is full of holes.

M

I agree to the point of the cost not equaling the actual cost of a Rolex, or any other high end brand, but my argument really isn’t full of holes… I have worked in a consultative manner to a myriad of light industrial companies in a prior life, and standards and QC differ, corporate philosophy, end user, availability of materials, and a million other variables. I assure you the processes differ from manufacturer to manufacturer regardless of product. I don’t see how that argument is full of holes?

 

[sprogo62]

Very succinctly put. You have stated the rub well. To paraphrase, “I like your work, but will pay bubba over here to use your design language give me a cheap thrill.” It mat be legal, but it is no more moral than making a copy of a cd rather than paying the artist who created the songs.

Interesting that you bring up music. I was thinking about that analogy while reading this thread. In the late 70's when I was more into audio, I made cassette tapes of most of my vinyl lp's as many people did to play in the car. I felt that because I had purchased the lp, that in effect I had payed the artist already for the music. There are many young people now who have hundreds of songs on their phones and have not payed for them. I could be wrong, but I think music is a little different than watches. Sure some new songs have elements from old ones but for the most part I think the courts have had music protected. There seems to be a very small amount of blatant ripoff.
I forgot the name of the movie, but in the movie Steve Jobs accuses Bill gates of getting the idea to use the mouse on computers from Apple. Bill Gates says to Steve Jobs that Apple got the idea from Xerox.

In this thread we have homage, copy, replica, counterfiet and maybe more.

I will add a new one "evolution"

 

[Shutterbug57]

Interesting that you bring up music. I was thinking about that analogy while reading this thread. In the 70's when I was more into audio, I made cassette tapes of most of my vinyl lp's as many people did to play in the car. I felt that because I had purchased the lp, that in effect I had payed the artist already for the music. There are many young people now who have hundreds of songs on their phones and have not payed for them.
I forgot the name of the movie, but in the movie Steve Jobs accuses Bill gates of stealing the use of the mouse on computers. Bill Gates says to Steve Jobs that Microsoft stole the idea from Xerox.

I think it is legal for you to make a copy of music for which you have the license, but copying your buddies LP/CD is not.

 

[KOB.]

The people who buy it don't say to themselves, look what a cool design, I don't know it in this way, I like it, I'll take it. Rather, they buy it because it's very close to the original.

You are making very broad generalisations for which you have absolutely no proof, not even anecdotal evidence, and absolutely no way of even knowing if it is close to being true. That's the problem with these sort of discussions, they degrade to how people 'feel' it is NOT WHAT it actually is and once you use these type of unproven, broad generalisations you lose credibility.

 

[Al.Macrest]

Homages and copies are not the same, that's true.

Nevertheless, the copies have their right to exist. Someone who cannot or does not want to spend a fortune can enjoy an optically cool watch.

More importantly in this debate, people who have a problem with the very existence (not the definition) of cheap copies actually have a huge problem themselves and are using their expensive watches to compensate for their ego. The expensive original serves these people primarily as an ego crutch because they lack self-confidence in real life.

Well, seeing how your registration is Switzerland, Basel no less, it sounds like what you're saying is that a major Swiss industry exists to exploit people with low self-esteem. I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you, to learn that a country that pretty much sat out WW II would do such a thing. How's Credit Suisse doing by the way?

 

[Al.Macrest]

For me, they are straight copies. But they still have a right to exist. You shouldn't have to spend a fortune to enjoy this design.

I have nothing against cheap watches. I own some cheap watches, they're just not knockoffs of someone else's designs. I have a problem with theft of intellectual property. I don't like companies who do this because I don't like the idea of making money off the honest work of others.

You shouldn't have to spend a fortune to enjoy this design.

What you have to pay for a design should be whatever the creator deems appropriate. You make it sound like it's some sort of inalienable right that if you like something, you should be able to get it cheaply. What about bootleg videos? I'm not seeing much of a difference.

 

[Watchbreath]

On watch forums.

 

[benoni47]

Well, seeing how your registration is Switzerland, Basel no less, it sounds like what you're saying is that a major Swiss industry exists to exploit people with low self-esteem. I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you, to learn that a country that pretty much sat out WW II would do such a thing. How's Credit Suisse doing by the way?

1. Since you bring up WW II: 80% of cream of the cream of Axis troops were annihilated on the Eastern Front.

2. You tell me. The pearls for the yanks, the bad bank for Switzerland.

 

[One-Seventy]

I agree to the point of the cost not equaling the actual cost of a Rolex, or any other high end brand, but my argument really isn’t full of holes… I have worked in a consultative manner to a myriad of light industrial companies in a prior life, and standards and QC differ, corporate philosophy, end user, availability of materials, and a million other variables. I assure you the processes differ from manufacturer to manufacturer regardless of product. I don’t see how that argument is full of holes?

Until you provide referable evidence to this forum, you have no argument that Tylenol is fundamentally more effective than own-brand paracetamol, or whatever it is you call it over there. You cannot argue that Tylenol is fundamentally better unless you have a basis for that argument: "they might have better internal processes, although I don't know myself" is not an argument, but mere conjecture. Surely you see this?

 

[One-Seventy]

I have nothing against cheap watches. I own some cheap watches, they're just not knockoffs of someone else's designs. I have a problem with theft of intellectual property. I don't like companies who do this because I don't like the idea of making money off the honest work of others.

What you have to pay for a design should be whatever the creator deems appropriate. You make it sound like it's some sort of inalienable right that if you like something, you should be able to get it cheaply. What about bootleg videos? I'm not seeing much of a difference.

Most people who don't know anything about royalties or licences don't see much difference. They just get the hump about it!

 

[AardnoldArrdvark]

Until you provide referable evidence to this forum, you have no argument that Tylenol is fundamentally more effective than own-brand paracetamol, or whatever it is you call it over there. You cannot argue that Tylenol is fundamentally better unless you have a basis for that argument: "they might have better internal processes, although I don't know myself" is not an argument, but mere conjecture. Surely you see this?

I'm not sure Tylenol is a great example of quality control either. In 2010 they had to recall 53m bottles of contaminated tablets; this was 20 months after customers reported problems with a 'musty smell' when opening new bottles.

 

[TravisMorgan]

 

[Klip88]

Until you provide referable evidence to this forum, you have no argument that Tylenol is fundamentally more effective than own-brand paracetamol, or whatever it is you call it over there. You cannot argue that Tylenol is fundamentally better unless you have a basis for that argument: "they might have better internal processes, although I don't know myself" is not an argument, but mere conjecture. Surely you see this?

In the literal sense of Tylenol vs supermarket brand sure, it’s conjecture. What is not conjecture is that higher end brands have better material sciences, better QC, and more skilled labor than whatever homage brand we’re talking about. A user even provided video saying while not terrible for the price, still no comparison. You’re arguing for the sake of arguing so I’ll concede as I am tired of this stupid fight, Steinhart and San Martin are just as well built as Rolex, and Omega!

 

[One-Seventy]

In the literal sense of Tylenol vs supermarket brand sure, it’s conjecture. What is not conjecture is that higher end brands have better material sciences, better QC, and more skilled labor than whatever homage brand we’re talking about. A user even provided video saying while not terrible for the price, still no comparison. You’re arguing for the sake of arguing so I’ll concede as I am tired of this stupid fight, Steinhart and San Martin are just as well built as Rolex, and Omega!

I'm not sure Tylenol is a great example of quality control either. In 2010 they had to recall 53m bottles of contaminated tablets; this was 20 months after customers reported problems with a 'musty smell' when opening new bottles.

.

 

[SpeedFreek67]

In the literal sense of Tylenol vs supermarket brand sure, it’s conjecture. What is not conjecture is that higher end brands have better material sciences, better QC, and more skilled labor than whatever homage brand we’re talking about. A user even provided video saying while not terrible for the price, still no comparison. You’re arguing for the sake of arguing so I’ll concede as I am tired of this stupid fight, Steinhart and San Martin are just as well built as Rolex, and Omega!

I think the argument got sidetracked with the material difference between branded drugs and their generic equivalents. That was, as you said, a poor analogy perhaps.

And nobody was arguing that there is no material difference between Steinhart, San Martin et. al., and Rolex or Omega. The comment you replied to stated there definitely was a difference, but asked if the amount of difference equated to the higher asking price of the famous brands.

Of course a Rolex is better than a San Martin. But is it 50 times better?

 

[Klip88]

I think the argument got sidetracked with the material difference between branded drugs and their generic equivalents. That was, as you said, a poor analogy perhaps.

And nobody was arguing that there is no material difference between Steinhart, San Martin et. al., and Rolex or Omega. The comment you replied to stated there definitely was a difference, but asked if the amount of difference equated to the higher asking price of the famous brands.

Of course a Rolex is better than a San Martin. But is it 500 times better?

Thanks for the level headed response, in an earlier comment which I don’t expect anyone to find at this point, agreed that the quality isn’t actually worth what they are charging. I don’t care if someone likes homages if they don’t like beating on expensive items or just like the brand. There is so much hate on both sides, my point at the end of the day is I do stay loyal to most brands that I respect regardless of technicalities of expired patents and what not. I have no problem with someone loving San Martin, or generic Tylenol . I personally rather the people who have had the process done right the first time, and didn’t copy i.e., homage brands in this particular case. I have also found quality is generally better by the OEM. As a side note thank god for generic meds as they are made available to underserved communities across the world!

 

[KOB.]

Steinhart and San Martin are just as well built as Rolex, and Omega!

Finally.....

 

[sprogo62]

post moved to the not necessary , fashionable new thread with same exact subject .