I think some of the bnib watches are examples of simply buying a watch without having seen it in person, and immediately regretting the purchase when it arrives. The bnib Rolex flips are just people who have relationships with their ADs. They buy them just to resell for a profit.

Im not sure how many covert dealers are on the forums. There are several well known ADs that sell here openly, and there's a few people that do sell used as a business. Again, very open about it.

 

I think some of the bnib watches are examples of simply buying a watch without having seen it in person, and immediately regretting the purchase when it arrives. The bnib Rolex flips are just people who have relationships with their ADs. They buy them just to resell for a profit.

Im not sure how many covert dealers are on the forums. There are several well known ADs that sell here openly, and there's a few people that do sell used as a business. Again, very open about it.

I don't have a problem with watch dealers (AD, grey or used). It's just bizarre to me that I can buy a watch from an AD, or I can buy a watch from a guy who bought the watch from the AD. Nearly the same price. Why the extra layer? What I completely understand is the grey dealers, especially the ones selling Rolex. Rolex AD's are selling all of their inventory out the back door at a markup to MSRP to the grey dealer, then the grey dealers mark it up again and sell it. It's a stupid way to do business but at least it makes sense.

I'm thinking most are a lot of "covert dealers", at least for the last year due to Covid lockdown.
Sellers thinking "Where do I find people that like watches?" The forums. Good place to try.
But we are on to them.

Probably a lot more in the past year. People have a lot more time on their hands and are starting to figure out how to game the system(s). I see it with other toys and collectables too; people try to buy first and hoard the product, then resell it quick on eBay. Funny comparison, but Lego collectors are doing the same thing. Next thing you know people will sell toilet paper at a premi... oh wait....

However, I have seen an increase in people that seem very likely not to be dealers still selling BNIB watches. My suspicion is this is a result of the current state of the watch market (particularly Rolex). There are more people buying watches and keeping them in safes hoping they appreciate in value. A couple of months ago some people were noticing that there were a lot of Tudor BB GMTs being unloaded, often in BNIB condition. I suspect people bought these thinking they'd appreciate, but as supply caught up to demand (and the date wheel issues surfaced) they realized that would not be the case and started unloading them. I think the BB58s are next.

I also suspect there are people buying watches they might not necessarily want/like to try to build up a relationship with an AD to get the piece they want. The target would mostly be Rolex, but I've heard of people doing this in the hope of getting an LE Omega, or some hot piece from other brands. Obviously they'd buy these and try to unload them ASAP in BNIB condition.

This is probably the biggest thing. Tudor new issues are all of a sudden sought after and the AD's will laugh at you if you try to buy one. Meanwhile some guy bought 7 of them and is now selling them at a huge markup. Then when production catches up with the demand, someone is left holding the bag. I suspect many of these online "forum dealers" are not well established but recently started their businesses. I would be more impressed if they were selling used watches and doing it successfully. The "grabbing as much new stock as possible and reselling it at a premium" is just irritating.

 

BNIB = Brand New In Box, so by definition, once sold to a secondary seller, this condition no longer applies, so these sellers are being disingenuous, misleading, or are misinformed.

The best these can ever be is LNIB. Like New In Box.

Like you, I'm sceptical of many of the private sellers that constantly do this...

SoOoO many watches, SoOoO little time...

 

I'm thinking most are a lot of "covert dealers", at least for the last year due to Covid lockdown.
Sellers thinking "Where do I find people that like watches?" The forums. Good place to try.
But we are on to them.

 

I'm thinking most are a lot of "covert dealers", at least for the last year due to Covid lockdown.
Sellers thinking "Where do I find people that like watches?" The forums. Good place to try.
But we are on to them.

Yea, especially on Reddit, I see a lot of "watch enthusiasts" with 85 transactions and all of them are watches straight from the AD, bought within a month.

 

Three ideas:

- Like @Black5 said, these are usually not BNIB, but LNIB, but to their owners, they feel like they are or should qualify as "brand new".

- People buy luxury watches because they have a desire for them. But then, many can't really bring themselves to wear their expensive pieces and risk wear and tear. But then it takes some time to realize that a watch sitting in a box all the time is useless.

- Eventually, they conclude to sell the watch even though they still feel attached to it, so their perceived price is a lot higher than justified from a buyer's perspective. There is no good reason for buying from a private seller if the same watch is easily available new and with warranty for a comparable price.

I'm pretty sure this happens a lot more than we think..

 

I recently purchased a "BNIB" watch from a member on TRF. It was exactly as stated, unworn, warranty card dated Dec. 2020, all stickers attached, bracelet not sized. It came with a few extras - strap and such - and sold for full retail. All in all to me a good purchase when one considers the wait line for such a watch.

I believed the seller when he stated he had changed his mind and wanted to move on to another. Not every watch sale is an unauthorized dealer, some really are enthusiasts.

 

Yes, that was my exact circumstances recently. I had bought a watch unseen (silly error) but fortunately was able to return the watch to the AD for a full refund. Otherwise i would have been selling a LNIB watch. I'm sure it happens with others all the time but also recognize that its a side business for some too...

 

Friend of mine is a vintage watch dealer, per his account there are a lot more side hustler these days where they'd "catch and release" for a couple of hundred dollars. For better or worse this mostly erase profit for most actual gray and used dealers. The demand driven rise in used watch prices certainly plays a large part in everyone and their mother getting in on selling watches.

There are also watch dealer specific private forums out there as well, where stock that isn't selling from an AD at a store, would be moved to a gray/reseller. And my guess is ADs need to do that in order to keep ordering new stock from the manufacturers because manufacturers allocate more desirable watches to store that sells more watches.

 

Your observations are pretty much on the money.

 

Because they are too afraid to wear the watches in front of theirs wives (hard to explain how they managed to buy them, where did the fund come from...), so the watches remain like new.

 

Flippers trying to make easy coin. 2020 was year of the hobbies since everyone was stuck inside, so enthusiasts of almost all varieties were out shopping online (and often for limited and/or hard to acquire niche items).

 

There are a good number of buyers out there who’ve just got to have the latest and greatest and once they’ve got it they flip and make like a butterfly - moving on to the next flower.

 

Yes I don’t get it either. Many of these BNIB watches can be had from ADs for the same price or sometimes even less if you have a good relationship with them.
Of course some sellers are genuine. I can give you my personal example. I used to live in Dallas and I had access to looking at watches so I would just buy the watches that I liked and sold them after wearing them for a while when I got bored. Then I moved to Missouri and didn’t have any worthwhile watch stores close by. That was the time I started buying and selling like crazy. If something struck my fancy, I would buy it but after trying those on, i would change my mind about most of them. So I would just sell them, but always at a loss till I got to my current collection and now I am very content with my collection so all that flipping/selling is done.
Now I am considering buying Doxa sub 300 but I have never seen it in person and nothing is available on the sales forum so I might end up getting one directly from Doxa but if I don’t like it, I will probably sell it so sometimes it’s simply because some of us are not able to try on the watches before we buy them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I think you see:

(1) - Some dealers selling slower moving merchandise;
(2) - Some quasi-professional flippers who have access to desirable watches and flip them for some money;
(3) - And regular WUS forum members who buy a watch online and then immediately decide its not exactly what they wanted. I actually think this is a big percentage of the BNIB here, and I've done it myself a couple times.

Here are a couple examples for me. I wanted to buy a Ball Trainmaster legend a couple years ago, but I couldn't decide between the black or gray dial. I went back and forth with an online dealer (since I could not find any at local ADs). The guy eventually offered me a great price if I took both. They arrived: I decided I liked the gray one; and I immediately posted and sold the black dial version for exactly what I paid. The buyer loved it and loved the price: we were both happy. I've also ordered a few watches and then I doubted if I liked them in person as much as I had hope I would. I long ago learned to move on quickly in those circumstances since it is better to sell BNIB. If I'm feeling so-so about a watch on day one, I typically don't grow to love it.

 

I think the overall number of BNIB watches for sale has stayed the same but they switched to different sales platforms.

Ebay is so bad now that no one wants to sell a watch there and sellers are listing them on other for sale sites and forums so it seems like more watches are for sale.

The first thing a lot of sellers do when they read something like this is take their watch off Ebay and list it here on the WUS forum.

New Ebay policies hurting their business?

I used to sell a few watches on Ebay until they recently changed policies wanting personal information and to connect a bank account. I was willing to connect a bank account. I guess this is the way for them to make more money and try to push Paypal out since they sold them. But I was not...

www.watchuseek.com

 

Strange since there are millions of watches for sale on eBay but please continue your narrative.

 

I think that terminology is very subjective depending on the seller, IMHO.

 

Adding to my own post above. I'm a bargain shopper by nature (gently used watches, CPO luxury cars, bought my home directly from a bank's REO dept.). I don't hesitate to buy a watch if the price is really good and I might like it, but will have no problem selling it for what I paid or close if I don't like it so much.

Most resellers on WUS will tell you that they typically get about 20-30% less than they paid when they have to resell a watch (unless its a hard-to-find, much desired watch), but I probably get closer to 90% of what I paid and often 95-100% - precisely because I mostly only buy at bargain prices and then baby my watches. For example, Touch of Modern was running a good sale on Meccanniche Veneziane watches, and while that sale was on, I received a generic 25% off coupon from the site. Then it was a no brainer. I bought two, was sort of "meh" about one, and sold it BNIB on WUS for exactly what I paid. The buyer got a very good deal since he received the benefit of my 25% off coupon on top of an already reduced price. I probably could have sold the MV (and several other watches) for more than I paid, but I won't do that on WUS. If I don't like a watch, I'm happy to get out of it for what I paid or a little less than that, and happy for another WUS member to get a watch he'll like at a decent price. So don't hesitate to buy BNIB on WUS if you see a watch you like and the price is good: there are lots of honest reasons people are selling extra watches BNIB.

PS - I am less trusting of sellers on Ebay, a lot less trusting. I bought one Oris Aquis that was a fake and another watch sold as "new" that was so clearly not new when I received it. I resolved both those issues, but am highly skeptical of Ebay sellers unless they have a ton of positive feedback.

BTW, I have a Steinhart Ocean 2 Premium I bought a couple weeks ago sitting BNIB, and I'm not putting it on until I decide yay or nay. No sense opening it, adjusting the bracelet, and reducing its resale value by 20% just to decide I'm not keeping it a few weeks later. And since forums always need more pictures, here's that watch. Right now, I'm leaning toward yay on it.

 

PS - I am less trusting of sellers on Ebay, a lot less trusting. I bought one Oris Aquis that was a fake and another watch sold as "new" that was so clearly not new when I received it. I resolved both those issues, but am highly skeptical of Ebay sellers unless they have a ton of positive feedback.

I'm surprised no one else has mentioned this. The best fakes are now past the average buyer's ability to detect. This a obvious way of selling them at a huge mark up.

 

If you're careful you can get away with selling fakes on eBay on an enormous scale for years....

News, sport and opinion from the Guardian's US edition | The Guardian

Latest US news, world news, sports, business, opinion, analysis and reviews from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voice

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Most of the counterfeit golf clubs were made in China and then distributed and sold around the world through an international network of criminals, Snaresbrook crown court in London heard.

Prosecutors described the operation to sell the fake clubs and other merchandise through eBay between June 2003 and March 2008 as "a conspiracy of a truly global nature".

The conspirators sold tens of thousands of items of golf equipment and more than $3m (£2m) was paid into their PayPal accounts during this period.

A fake maker could reserve the best 5% of its production and have a decent technician regulate them. Then they'd sell them through dozens of different accounts and be super helpful and surprised if a fake was occasionally discovered.

 

I don't think I'd call it easy money. There are private dealers spending many thousands of dollars to make 5-10% profit. Not a business I would personally want to be in.

 

Watch “enthusiasts” are fickle!

I include myself in this criticism.

 

This has been a practice for at least 30 years, especially since Ebay became a place to purchase watches. There was a guy about 25 years ago who did excellent business selling brand new sealed in box watches from top brands. I bought several watches from him. Two JLCs, a Blancpain, a Girard Perregaux, a Rolex Day Date, a Calatrava and an original Hublot model (that looked like a ship's porthole). I actually became acquainted with him and what he would do is contact watch dealers in the boondocks that could not sell their allotted watches received from the manufacturer, and would buy them at a super discount (a little over cost) and then he would put them on Ebay at very competitive prices.

 

There are a lot of folks simply taking advantage of uninformed buyers. I know certain brands that discount heavily but are sold on the market for more. I know of one "exchange" where a watch could be had for 3k and routinely sold BNIB for 3.8k+ all day. Easy money for a seller.

 

Avoiding sales tax is a factor.

 

So I think there is a lot to unpack here. First of all, I personally don't have an issue with secondary dealers as the good ones are trustworthy and you can get a good deal. But I hate the people that try to hide that they are dealers like you mentioned. They say "oh I just changed my mind, I flip a lot" and it's like the 100th watch they are selling in that condition. Come on. But if they are upfront about being dealers, I don't have an issue with it.

However, I have seen an increase in people that seem very likely not to be dealers still selling BNIB watches. My suspicion is this is a result of the current state of the watch market (particularly Rolex). There are more people buying watches and keeping them in safes hoping they appreciate in value. A couple of months ago some people were noticing that there were a lot of Tudor BB GMTs being unloaded, often in BNIB condition. I suspect people bought these thinking they'd appreciate, but as supply caught up to demand (and the date wheel issues surfaced) they realized that would not be the case and started unloading them. I think the BB58s are next.

I also suspect there are people buying watches they might not necessarily want/like to try to build up a relationship with an AD to get the piece they want. The target would mostly be Rolex, but I've heard of people doing this in the hope of getting an LE Omega, or some hot piece from other brands. Obviously they'd buy these and try to unload them ASAP in BNIB condition.

And of course there's just simple buyer's remorse. WIS types can be fickle/impulsive. When you have a market like we are seeing these days due to demand and also COVID, if you see a moderately popular model at an AD that's not always in stock, you might feen an extra impulse to purchase it. Then you bring it home and wonder why you bought it, so try to unload.

 

Some of those BNIB watches being sold are technically not really BNIB.

A guy can buy a watch, try it on, decides he doesnt like it, and carefully rewrap it to sell as BNIB.

I use the catch-and-release line a lot because it is true. I do flip a lot. But I've never listed a watch as BNIB, because once I take it out of the box and wrapping, it's not BNIB anymore.

 

Some of them are BNIB, some of them are NIB. I think there's a lack of common agreement on what BNIB, NIB, and LNIB mean. I could start by defining what they mean to me. I'm not saying these are exactly right, but if we're going to bother with three different terms than they should be distinct and at least somewhat defined and understood.

BNIB - Brand New In Box. Means that the last person to touch the packaging was the factory worker who packed it. The watch hasn't been unpacked in any way and any factory seals on the box are still in tact.

NIB - New In Box. Means that all the factory packaging is there, packed in the same way it was from the factory, including any protective films (unremoved) on the watch. It could have been taken out of the box but repacked with all the same factory packaging.

LNIB - Like New In Box. Means the watch has been taken out and any protective films, covers, and tags removed. It could have been sized and worn very briefly, a matter of a few minutes. There are no scratches or dings or any perceptible wear on the watch at all. The watch has all it's factory hardware, links and pins, etc. and all it's factory display packaging.

Now, whether a LNIB watch is worth the full retail price of a BNIB watch is obviously up to the buyer.

-Paul

 

Some of them are BNIB, some of them are NIB. I think there's a lack of common agreement on what BNIB, NIB, and LNIB mean. I could start by defining what they mean to me. I'm not saying these are exactly right, but if we're going to bother with three different terms than they should be distinct and at least somewhat defined and understood.

BNIN - Brand New In Box. Means that the last person to touch the packaging was the factory worker who packed it. The watch hasn't been unpacked in any way and any factory seals on the box are still in tact.

NIB - New In Box. Means that all the factory packaging is there, packed in the same way it was from the factory, including any protective films (unremoved) on the watch. It could have been taken out of the box but repacked with all the same factory packaging.

LNIB - Like New In Box. Means the watch has been taken out and any protective films, covers, and tags removed. It could have been sized and worn very briefly, a matter of a few minutes. There are no scratches or dings or any perceptible wear on the watch at all. The watch has all it's factory hardware, links and pins, etc. and all it's factory display packaging.

Now, whether a LNIB watch is worth the full retail price of a BNIB watch is obviously up to the buyer.

-Paul

Been in the watch industry very long?

 

Change of heart is the most common I would say...