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Okay, I'm experiencing decision fatigue. I've posted here there and everywhere and have had great responses to my queries. Recently I posted on the Omega page asking about a SMPc as a one watch option and a collection consolidation piece. Most were in favor. I've considered a Doxa 1200t and a Seiko mm300. I'm liquidating my Tudor Black Bay blue and realizing that if i want a Sub one day, I don't want the Tudor. But this is not about a Sub vs ..... It is about the fact that I've become frugal. Not in a cut off all extra spending, but in a purchase quality stuff once and forget it. With this in mind, knowing that today most stainless steel watches will last a life time with a proper service now and then, and I realize a watch as an heirloom will work because it was my watch (no matter the brand)....

What about going more budget friendly with a Turtle or a Sumo?

I've considered a Seiko mm300 but I can't see it in person and it looks thick. I have a SKX 007, how does it compare in thickness? But I know a turtle or Sumo would work thickness wise. Also, I've had a 6r15 that ran 20 sec slow a day. My SKX is 8 seconds slow. What about the Sumo performance compared to a Turtle 4r36?

As a whole, I keep talking myself out of (to me) expensive divers and leaning towards watches that I wouldn't mind if it got lost, damaged or destroyed other than for sentimental reasons.

For those reading, and have had it own more luxury level divers, and have embraced the Seiko $250 to $500, and maybe a mm300, why? Did you realize that a Seiko does just as good a job at telling time and meeting the adventure watch criteria. Something you would actually take on a dive and also keep for years. I can tell you I'm not getting rid of this SKX unless Seiko quits making them and they become the next 6105. Or is the mm300 the Seiko to own? Forget the Omega SMP, the Rolex Sub, the Doxa or the Turtle/Sumo and go for "the" Seiko Dive watch, even if it needs to go to Japan for service.

Thank you for your thoughts. I'm just trying to shake out what I want materialistic (Sub) vs what I want actually (financial independence).



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i've had the SMPc, and while it is flashy it is not something i would keep for long term...but i would still choose that over the mm300 just for wearability sake.

as for budget friendly seikos, i'm more partial to those with the baton indices which are all released this year...eg. samurai, SBDC051/053...and the more expensive SLA017.
but seeing as ur choices revolve around that rolex inspired dial...then u cant really go wrong with either the turtle / sumo.

but going back to the omega...why not a PO2500? :p
 

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I can shed some light on this. I love my turtles. They are awesome. I have a 777 and 773 incoming as I type to finish off the collection. Fantastic watches, extremely comfortable, and totally different than everything else on everyone's wrist. Plus it's a watch that can be worn and never worried about. Ding a bezel, oh well, I order a coin edge...you get the idea. In there you'll also see a tuna, mm300, and GS Diver. I wore the mm300 straight for nearly a year, 1 watch, and it was great. Everyone complains it's tall...it isn't that tall. However, it is a very very special watch.
Notice what's not in there...a sumo. Had one for 1 week and it went on the block. I'm not really a bracelet guy, especially in the summer. The sumo doesn't look right on nato, because the lugs are so darn long.
My GS gets worn 1 time per quarter if I'm lucky. I'm so anal about scratching it, because the finish is so beautiful.
I've also had a ton of Swiss watches, but they never get worn. I also have a DOXA1200T, and the MM300 kills it. There is something about how the hands overlap, and that silver datewheel, the scallops in the side of the case, that just work and work and work. If I were you, that would be my vote to do MM300 and grab a turtle as your beater. I bought my used a couple years back, and upshot is they hold their value very well.





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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I can shed some light on this. I love my turtles. They are awesome. I have a 777 and 773 incoming as I type to finish off the collection. Fantastic watches, extremely comfortable, and totally different than everything else on everyone's wrist. Plus it's a watch that can be worn and never worried about. Ding a bezel, oh well, I order a coin edge...you get the idea. In there you'll also see a tuna, mm300, and GS Diver. I wore the mm300 straight for nearly a year, 1 watch, and it was great. Everyone complains it's tall...it isn't that tall. However, it is a very very special watch.
Notice what's not in there...a sumo. Had one for 1 week and it went on the block. I'm not really a bracelet guy, especially in the summer. The sumo doesn't look right on nato, because the lugs are so darn long.
My GS gets worn 1 time per quarter if I'm lucky. I'm so anal about scratching it, because the finish is so beautiful.
I've also had a ton of Swiss watches, but they never get worn. I also have a DOXA1200T, and the MM300 kills it. There is something about how the hands overlap, and that silver datewheel, the scallops in the side of the case, that just work and work and work. If I were you, that would be my vote to do MM300 and grab a turtle as your beater. I bought my used a couple years back, and upshot is they hold their value very well.





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Good point about value retention. I've noticed that the Seikos hold value, or at least you don't lose much. Not that they are investments, but a $1800 mm300 can be flipped for close to that. Easy in easy out. Easier to experiment with, and the other divers (like the SRP turtle, or even a vintage 6105) are still within reach.

Maybe embracing my pull towards the Seiko design and quirks is the path to watch wabi sabi. I want something to put my worn life on, why not something Japanese.


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One word: Movements....Seiko charges big bucks for high beat movements. Cheaper Seiko have low-beat movements. This matters to discerning customers.

Omega only sells high beat movements.
 

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I have one Omega diver and since then have purchased 2 Seiko divers and a G Shock. I'd love a nice Rolex but here in Australia the pricing is absurd. I cannot see me ever using my own money and buying one unless some rich relative either buys or leaves me one. That's why my next Swiss watch (if that happens at all) will be a Tudor or possibly a Speedmaster pre-owned. Forking out big dollars for a Swiss watch is objectively ridiculous.

To answer the question of the OP I would just buy the MM300 or the SBP051/53. They are amazing. The MM300 with the light blue dial is one that I would love to own.

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Seiko Marinemaster 300M SLA015 Limited Edition Watch For Europe Only | aBlogtoWatch
 

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OP it sounds like the move from Swiss to Japanese is a good one for you, im a huge japanese lover so im a bit bias but id suggest you give them a go, you might never go back.
For all the reasons youve said it sounds like youll be a lot more comfortable buying japanese, $200-$500 range delivers some killer watches that you dont feel guilty buying, wearing or for upkeep and the Japanese have a special design flavour of their own that you might even grow to love after getting a few.
The turtles a great place to start but if you can afford a MM go for it, its a hell of a watch.
Just spend a bit of time researching to find the right model,
cheers
 

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OP it sounds like the move from Swiss to Japanese is a good one for you, im a huge japanese lover so im a bit bias but id suggest you give them a go, you might never go back.
For all the reasons youve said it sounds like youll be a lot more comfortable buying japanese, $200-$500 range delivers some killer watches that you dont feel guilty buying, wearing or for upkeep and the Japanese have a special design flavour of their own that you might even grow to love after getting a few.
The turtles a great place to start but if you can afford a MM go for it, its a hell of a watch.
Just spend a bit of time researching to find the right model,
cheers
All good points but leaving out the movement issue. The OP should be aware to pay attention to what is powering his new wrist rocket.

Paying out $600+ for a low-beat movement is something a buyer should realize before clicking "buy".
 

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I can shed some light on this. I love my turtles. They are awesome. I have a 777 and 773 incoming as I type to finish off the collection. Fantastic watches, extremely comfortable, and totally different than everything else on everyone's wrist. Plus it's a watch that can be worn and never worried about. Ding a bezel, oh well, I order a coin edge...you get the idea. In there you'll also see a tuna, mm300, and GS Diver. I wore the mm300 straight for nearly a year, 1 watch, and it was great. Everyone complains it's tall...it isn't that tall. However, it is a very very special watch.
Notice what's not in there...a sumo. Had one for 1 week and it went on the block. I'm not really a bracelet guy, especially in the summer. The sumo doesn't look right on nato, because the lugs are so darn long.
My GS gets worn 1 time per quarter if I'm lucky. I'm so anal about scratching it, because the finish is so beautiful.
I've also had a ton of Swiss watches, but they never get worn. I also have a DOXA1200T, and the MM300 kills it. There is something about how the hands overlap, and that silver datewheel, the scallops in the side of the case, that just work and work and work. If I were you, that would be my vote to do MM300 and grab a turtle as your beater. I bought my used a couple years back, and upshot is they hold their value very well.





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Lovely collection mate, looks like you love the turtles as much as i do, ive got a padi, 773 and 775, im just waiting for a batman to come along at a good sale price and i'll grab one.
Dream killers batman SXK mod has got me keen for a batman, hes a bad influence.
 

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All good points but leaving out the movement issue. The OP should be aware to pay attention to what is powering his new wrist rocket.

Paying out $600+ for a low-beat movement is something a buyer should realize before clicking "buy".
Mate with all due respect you know my feelings on beats per minute, go write a letter to Philippe patek about their low beat movement, weve been through this just the other day.

Have you ever thought that its more important to you than many others?

I simply dont care if my watch beats 6 or 10 times a minute, as long as its well built and gets the job done, i'll leave the fussing over beats to others.

You are like a parrot in every single seiko thread, obsessed with beats, in your mind its not a good watch if it doesnt have 8 beats per minute, we get it mate.

Your obsession with this topic says alot more about your understanding of watches than anything else and its getting incredibly boring bro.

Are you planning on continuing dropping into every seiko thread to obsess over beats per minute?

How long are you planning on doing this for and what are you hoping to achieve?

Id say that everybody who buys a watch at WUS level knows how many beats they are getting before they get it, what makes you think they are so stupid that they will only realise its beat after they buy it?

Why exactly is 8 beats so much better than 6 per minute ?
 

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Lovely collection mate, looks like you love the turtles as much as i do, ive got a padi, 773 and 775, im just waiting for a batman to come along at a good sale price and i'll grab one.
Dream killers batman SXK mod has got me keen for a batman, hes a bad influence.
Thank you. I was completely unaware that the turtles were reissued, as I hadn't looked at watches for about a year or so. I was happily living the MM300 daily wear life. Once I saw that they were reissued, and under $300 a piece, I was like a moth to a flame. The Batman is super cool, because that blue is almost electric. I also really like the minute hand being the same color. I just got a Coke as well, to match the Pepsi. I paid $280 a piece for the Batman and coke. I figured that was a good enough deal.

As for the whole low beat/high beat issue for the op, there are a million treads debating that one. For me, I don't mind the 21k movements because it still tells accurate time. If I wanna watch the second hand sweep around the dial, I'll grab my spring drive ;)

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Mate with all due respect you know my feelings on beats per minute, go write a letter to Philippe patek about their low beat movement, weve been through this just the other day.

Have you ever thought that its more important to you than many others?

I simply dont care if my watch beats 6 or 10 times a minute, as long as its well built and gets the job done, i'll leave the fussing over beats to guys like you.

You are like a parrot in every single seiko thread, obsessed with beats, in your mind its not a good watch if it doesnt have 8 beats per minute, we get it mate.

Your obsession with this topic says alot more about your understanding of watches than anything else and its getting incredibly boring bro.

Are you planning on continuing dropping into every seiko thread to obsess over beats per minute?

How long are you planning on doing this for and what are you hoping to achieve?

Id say that everybody who buys a watch at WUS level knows how many beats they are getting before they get it, what makes you think they are so stupid that they will only realise its beat after they buy it?

Why exactly is 8 beats better than 6 per minute? id love to hear you explanation?
There are new posters and members here daily who have no clue about what they are buying. This site is here to pass along facts, information and polite opinions.

I understand you don't care about movements, it is your loss.

As for PP, I would never buy one, for several reasons.

If you don't like my posts, don't read them, or go ahead and block me.
 

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There are new posters and members here daily who have no clue about what they are buying. This site is here to pass along facts, information and polite opinions.

I understand you don't care about movements, it is your loss.

As for PP, I would never buy one, for several reasons.

If you don't like my posts, don't read them, or go ahead and block me.
Why dont you go to the Philippe Patek forum and pen a few blogs, or jump into every thread to warn all the 'discerning' buyers about how little they know about watches and beats per second, fill them in on movements and how dopey they are for spending tens of thousands of dollars on them, see how good you go, just let me know when you are going to do it because id like to watch.

Ive asked you a few times to please explain if you could and back up your hi beat obsession, please explain in point form if you could, why 8 beats per minute is so much better than 6?
Seeings you talk about it in every thread and make out that buyers of low beat movements have no idea what they are doing and have no idea about watches, its fair enough to ask you to give a good run down of why they are so much better and more powerful?
Ive asked you many times and each time you ignore the question.
Id be very interested to see your long list and explanation, dont bother about including 'it looks better' id like your theory on why its so much better and why you are giving all these people 'who have no clue what they are buying' advice on buying hig beat movements?
This should be very easy for you as youre an expert on the topic.
Cheers
 

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Thank you. I was completely unaware that the turtles were reissued, as I hadn't looked at watches for about a year or so. I was happily living the MM300 daily wear life. Once I saw that they were reissued, and under $300 a piece, I was like a moth to a flame. The Batman is super cool, because that blue is almost electric. I also really like the minute hand being the same color. I just got a Coke as well, to match the Pepsi. I paid $280 a piece for the Batman and coke. I figured that was a good enough deal.

As for the whole low beat/high beat issue for the op, there are a million treads debating that one. For me, I don't mind the 21k movements because it still tells accurate time. If I wanna watch the second hand sweep around the dial, I'll grab my spring drive ;)

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Theres really a trade off between higher between higher and lower beat watches, for the perceived slightly better accuracy of the higher beats, that is offset by a lot more wear on the parts, more services, they are a lot higher maintenance and often not as tough a movement, lubrications also can be an issue.
You will see a lot more repairs and parts going into higher beat movements.
Theres a trade off with everything and positives and negatives about everything, especially when it comes to this topic.
 

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I can shed some light on this.
Thank you cyphion for a very insightful post. I've been thinking of buying a diver, but I'd like to buy one diver and not a collection of divers. I've been kind of set on the MM300 for a while, but never seen it in person. I'm happy to hear that a Seiko diver-collector of your caliber recommends the MM300. Although the new SPB051/SBDC051 got me thinking of getting one as well...
 

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First off, I really feel where you're coming from. I'm a frugal person, not just when it comes to watches, but in my everyday life. Quite simply my mother raised me to always consider the value for money in any purchase I make, and it's a hard habit to shake off. As much as I like the idea of owning a MM300 or a Pelagos, I'm not sure I'll ever be comfortable spending that much money on a watch and be able to wear it daily without worrying about damaging it (especially with the exorbitant repair costs).

In terms of what you get for the money, the Turtle is really hard to beat right now. The Sumo does have a better movement, but is it twice as good? Not even close. Also I think the Turtle is more versatile in terms of straps and how/where you can wear it. The Sumo's combination of narrow lug width and large case looks great on some strap combinations (stock bracelet, crafter blue rubber) and downright awkward on others.

In terms of value, my watch of choice would be the Mido Ocean Star. It's got the 80-hour modified ETA movement, sapphire glass, and a ratcheting micro-adjust bracelet for under $600.

The design doesn't really speak to me though, so my choice for a reasonably priced dive watch would be the SBDC053, currently available for $600 from Chino. I'd also probably pick up the bracelet from the SBDC051 which is available for $130 on eBay (and maybe a MM300 clasp to go with it for $100).
 
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Why dont you go to the Philippe Patek forum and pen a few blogs, or jump into every thread to warn all the 'discerning' buyers about how little they know about watches and beats per second, fill them in on movements and how dopey they are for spending tens of thousands of dollars on them, see how good you go, just let me know when you are going to do it because id like to watch.

Ive asked you a few times to please explain if you could and back up your hi beat obsession, please explain in point form if you could, why 8 beats per minute is so much better than 6?
Seeings you talk about it in every thread and make out that buyers of low beat movements have no idea what they are doing and have no idea about watches, its fair enough to ask you to give a good run down of why they are so much better and more powerful?
Ive asked you many times and each time you ignore the question.
Id be very interested to see your long list and explanation, dont bother about including 'it looks better' id like your theory on why its so much better and why you are giving all these people 'who have no clue what they are buying' advice on buying hig beat movements?
This should be very easy for you as youre an expert on the topic.
Cheers
The advantages of high-beat are: better isochronism, and better performance in both vertical and horizontal positions when testing.

This is one of the reasons fast-beat has been almost universally adopted by mass-producers. If you think of a how fast a quartz movement beats, while Mechanical watch usually have 28800 to 36000 beats per minute and therefore cannot compete with quartz watches that have around 4000 to 8000 beats per second (10 times faster). So in theory the mechanical Hi beat movement should be more accurate.

http://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=High-beat

".....Seiko has used the derivative term "Hi Beat" to refer to 28,800 A/h movements."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-axial_escapement

"....an oscillation rate of 28,800 bph (8 bt/s), considered a "hi-beat" movement."

Untitled

"First off, almost all of them [Rolex] are high beat (28,800 BPH) movements. I know that some manufacturers prefer a slower beat (usually 21,600 BPH) in order to reduce wear on the pivots. I know that many will disagree with me, but I honestly don't believe that the gains justify the losses in going with a slower beat.

The most important gains are more torque, which usually results in a smoother and more even transmission of power. Greater moment of inertia. So that the balance wheel is disturbed less and recovers faster from shocks and bumps. Also, the fact that the balance is moving faster, means that it's spends less time in contact with the escapement. These things contribute greatly to increased accuracy and reliability."
 

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The advantages of high-beat are: better isochronism, and better performance in both vertical and horizontal positions when testing.

This is one of the reasons fast-beat has been almost universally adopted by mass-producers. If you think of a how fast a quartz movement beats, while Mechanical watch usually have 28800 to 36000 beats per minute and therefore cannot compete with quartz watches that have around 4000 to 8000 beats per second (10 times faster). So in theory the mechanical Hi beat movement should be more accurate.

http://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=High-beat

".....Seiko has used the derivative term "Hi Beat" to refer to 28,800 A/h movements."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-axial_escapement

"....an oscillation rate of 28,800 bph (8 bt/s), considered a "hi-beat" movement."

Untitled

"First off, almost all of them [Rolex] are high beat (28,800 BPH) movements. I know that some manufacturers prefer a slower beat (usually 21,600 BPH) in order to reduce wear on the pivots. I know that many will disagree with me, but I honestly don't believe that the gains justify the losses in going with a slower beat.

The most important gains are more torque, which usually results in a smoother and more even transmission of power. Greater moment of inertia. So that the balance wheel is disturbed less and recovers faster from shocks and bumps. Also, the fact that the balance is moving faster, means that it's spends less time in contact with the escapement. These things contribute greatly to increased accuracy and reliability."
Many very fair points here mate, i agree with many but for all of these points there are just as many counter arguments that have been spoken about thousands of times here, search any thread on the topic and you'll find counter arguments for every point.

Id argue that many people buying seiko at the $200-$500 level that the op was talking about actually want the lower maintenance and more robust movement with less maintenance and less wear on the movement.

A high beat movement is low priority for many at this price point or at any price point.
 

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Many very fair points here mate, i agree with many but for all of these points there are just as many counter arguments that have been spoken about thousands of times here, search any thread on the topic and you'll find counter arguments for every point.

Id argue that many people buying seiko at the $200-$500 level that the op was talking about actually want the lower maintenance and more robust movement with less maintenance and less wear on the movement.

A high beat movement is low priority for many at this price point or at any price point.
Agree under $600US, but not Shogun, SBDC, and the other 6r15 equipped watches, my whole point.

All 6r15 should be priced under $600US. All Seiko priced higher should be 28.8k bph.
 

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Thank you cyphion for a very insightful post. I've been thinking of buying a diver, but I'd like to buy one diver and not a collection of divers.
I wish you good luck with that. If you achieve your goal please let me know how you did it! |>

The current collection. Got my eye on the next one already...
 

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