ContemporaryVictorian
Did you have any specific concerns or questions?
Servicing prices vary widely, but nothing is jumping out at me as unusual, except that it's a little odd to charge separately for the cleaning and lubricating fluids. It's great that they were able to source those parts for you.
Servicing prices vary widely, but nothing is jumping out at me as unusual, except that it's a little odd to charge separately for the cleaning and lubricating fluids. It's great that they were able to source those parts for you.
Sure,
This is the one
Pocket watch repair, servicing and commission sales
pocket watch repair, servicing and commission sales
www.pocketwatchdoctor.co.uk
I don't think that a solid chromium case makes sense. The stuff is several times more expensive than stainless steel, it is harder (so one might think that it is especially suited to cases - more durable) which makes it more difficult to work with. One reason why (gold or chrome) plated brass was used in the old days is that it was so much easier to work with than steel. I suppose that standard watches were viewed mainly as utilitarian items that were not supposed to last for more than some decades. The better ones that were supposed to last got gold cases, partly to raise the value but also to make them more durable. Sure, one might use chrome for a limited series and put the extra effort in crafting the cases (and charge the customer accordingly) but I do not think that anyone contemplated it for mass use.
Hartmut Richter
Hartmut Richter
This is what i got in my emails today, i am not happy, i wanted a fully working early model 992 and when he gets back i will tell him that, seems he has damaged my watch and to fix it has created triggers broom
I sent off an early model 992A that just needed some TLC, kept ok time fully retarded and he's wrecked it, not a happy camper.
Attachments
Based on which criterias did you choose that watchmaker ? I think to read the google reviews before sending a valuable timepiece for overhaul is a mandatory. I had two watchmakers that I trusted now I am down to one because the second one that I praised and trusted before for many years just took my money and didn't overhaul the watch as it should. A similar story happened with him some years ago but with the last watch I gave to him , he just took the money and did nothing.Enough is enough. Fact is that very good and talented watchmakers are nowadays becoming a scarcity.![Image]()
This is what i got in my emails today, i am not happy, i wanted a fully working early model 992 and when he gets back i will tell him that, seems he has damaged my watch and to fix it has created triggers broom
I sent off an early model 992A that just needed some TLC, kept ok time fully retarded and he's wrecked it, not a happy camper.
So to get this straight; you sent in the watch, and after servicing he found it to be 10 mins fast. He couldn't come up with a way to fix that (checking magnetism, resetting the pallet fork jewels, or checking the hair spring were seemingly not mentioned?).
So instead, he replaced the movement in its entirety, and is returning your original movement.
Overall, I don't think anything is ruined, but that was an interesting choice on his part. You still have the original movement that can be swapped back in if it can be "repaired" (both being fast and a pallet fork in need of attention).
You definitely didn't get the service you should have expected, but calling it wrecked doesn't seem right to me. He definitely should have called before replacing the movement (and you have the right to be angry about that), but it is far from wrecked.
So instead, he replaced the movement in its entirety, and is returning your original movement.
Overall, I don't think anything is ruined, but that was an interesting choice on his part. You still have the original movement that can be swapped back in if it can be "repaired" (both being fast and a pallet fork in need of attention).
You definitely didn't get the service you should have expected, but calling it wrecked doesn't seem right to me. He definitely should have called before replacing the movement (and you have the right to be angry about that), but it is far from wrecked.
1, What I see is, the accuracy problem started to show up after cleaning, and that’s typical. Usually, before cleaning it could have unstable error so not very obvious. I don’t see a clear indication the watchmaker can make it running 10 minutes faster by accident.
2, Old watch with Berguet hairspring and temperature compensated balancer tends to run fast over time. At least 20% of my old watches coming from eBay has this issue.
3, Seems like pallet jewel needs replacing, plus re-timing the balancer. Most watchmakers wouldn’t do this since it’s time consuming and doesn’t worth the work, replacing the movement is more practical than this.
2, Old watch with Berguet hairspring and temperature compensated balancer tends to run fast over time. At least 20% of my old watches coming from eBay has this issue.
3, Seems like pallet jewel needs replacing, plus re-timing the balancer. Most watchmakers wouldn’t do this since it’s time consuming and doesn’t worth the work, replacing the movement is more practical than this.
That would be my main gripe...that he didn't ask me first. My guess is the watchmaker wanted this out of his hair and didn't want to take a gamble on the customer insisting the original movement be repaired. Better to ask forgiveness than ask permission, as the old saying goes. But at least you have a working watch now.
Working on these Old Watches can be tough. By the time one shows up on a bench nowadays, I'll suggest that there's a pretty-good chance it's been restaffed and has a non-original hairspring, or a spring that's been damaged and shows it. Balance jewels can be non-original, too, and roller jewels ( impulse pins ) may have either been replaced or recemented. Pallet forks seem usually to have done OK, but signs of recementing a jewel are far from rare.
So: perhaps we should consider that we are at a 'tipping point' of sorts, as relates to having these Old Watches worked on. There are still many of them out there in good, usable condition, but not all that good: they can be made to run well for a long time, but doing so requires striking a balance between working with what's there, as compared to replacing a part that may be very difficult to find, and even then, may not be correct when it arrives in the mail.
We may discover that even a good, experienced person is running out of luck when being tasked with getting one of these 100+ year-old watches up & running. You can do just so much with what you have on hand, spare-parts-wise, and if it's becoming really difficult to find a replacement, well... that's that, unless you're willing and able to afford the cost of having new parts made.
I used to do business with a local Watchmaker who was trained at the Waltham factory in Massachusetts after he left military service in WWll, and Andy suggested that 'fitting watch hands is a thankless task'. This was a few decades ago, and mentioned by someone with a nice selection of used parts, and active accounts with several , USA-based parts suppliers. I've spent lots of time, myself, both finding and fitting pocket watch hands, and Andy ( RIP ) was exactly right...it's a lot of work.
And, this is 'only' the hands. There's more to deal with, just waiting!
Michael.
So: perhaps we should consider that we are at a 'tipping point' of sorts, as relates to having these Old Watches worked on. There are still many of them out there in good, usable condition, but not all that good: they can be made to run well for a long time, but doing so requires striking a balance between working with what's there, as compared to replacing a part that may be very difficult to find, and even then, may not be correct when it arrives in the mail.
We may discover that even a good, experienced person is running out of luck when being tasked with getting one of these 100+ year-old watches up & running. You can do just so much with what you have on hand, spare-parts-wise, and if it's becoming really difficult to find a replacement, well... that's that, unless you're willing and able to afford the cost of having new parts made.
I used to do business with a local Watchmaker who was trained at the Waltham factory in Massachusetts after he left military service in WWll, and Andy suggested that 'fitting watch hands is a thankless task'. This was a few decades ago, and mentioned by someone with a nice selection of used parts, and active accounts with several , USA-based parts suppliers. I've spent lots of time, myself, both finding and fitting pocket watch hands, and Andy ( RIP ) was exactly right...it's a lot of work.
And, this is 'only' the hands. There's more to deal with, just waiting!
Michael.
On the same note, I had an old POS '69 GMC half-ton. It was always on the edge of not running and one year I couldn't get it to pass smog, no matter what I did, so I paid for a diagnosis. He put a timing light on the pulley and the mark was dancing all over the place. The distributor was shot.
Got it back yesterday, turns out he used parts off a later 992, although i see a blue hairspring so maybe i have the only 992 with elinvar hairspring now? today i wore it and it's gained a few seconds, i know because i set it yesterday to time.is 10-15 seconds behind, hopefully it doesn't gain 10-15 seconds every time i wear it or that is a problem, i'll have to get to know it's positions and where it runs fast or slower.
The salesman case, not sure if it is a real salesman case since the back is screwed on? could just two crystals from the same case but it's beautiful, just hope nothing shatters it when it's in my pocket, there is a small rust spot below the crown, it says base metal but i'm not sure if it's just steel or chrome or nickel clad.
I've read that some ( all? ) of the earliest Elinvar springs were blue, but that they went to white before too long. I own one of the earlier Elinvar Models, and mine is signed "Elinvar" on the pallet bridge and has the blue spring.
I'd just use your 992 for a while, wind it at about the same time each day, and keep a record of what it's doing. If there's a clear trend, you'll soon know it. A watch of this Grade ( and age! ) should be capable of running, say, to plus or minus 10 seconds a day.
You should find out if there's a new mainspring. Using an older one is OK, but may put you at the mercy of a tired spring. If this were mine, I would install a NOS Hamilton Dynavar spring if available, or a new, Swiss-Made alloy item if not.
This looks to me like a chrome-plated case. They were frequently signed "Base Metal". Then again, it could be nickel...they both look a lot alike, although chrome is readily apparent once you've seen a few for comparison.
Nice watch...one of the best, 16s RR-Grade USA watches, ever!
Michael.
I'd just use your 992 for a while, wind it at about the same time each day, and keep a record of what it's doing. If there's a clear trend, you'll soon know it. A watch of this Grade ( and age! ) should be capable of running, say, to plus or minus 10 seconds a day.
You should find out if there's a new mainspring. Using an older one is OK, but may put you at the mercy of a tired spring. If this were mine, I would install a NOS Hamilton Dynavar spring if available, or a new, Swiss-Made alloy item if not.
This looks to me like a chrome-plated case. They were frequently signed "Base Metal". Then again, it could be nickel...they both look a lot alike, although chrome is readily apparent once you've seen a few for comparison.
Nice watch...one of the best, 16s RR-Grade USA watches, ever!
Michael.
Your watch appears to be a 992 Model 2
992 - Model 1: Regular Blue Colored Hairspring, Fancy Damakeening Pattern
992 - Model 2: Regular Blue Colored Hairspring, Narrow Straight Line Pattern
992 - Model 3: Referred to as 992E. Original Elinvar Hairspring died blue due to uneven gray color of original elinvar material. Marked "Elinvar" under balance wheel. Wide straight line pattern, except for a few late model Model 2's which were finished as Model 3's, but with the narrow pattern
992B: New Design with new "White Colored" Elinvar Extra Hairspring. Except for a few pre-production prototypes, not marked Elinvar.
992 - Model 1: Regular Blue Colored Hairspring, Fancy Damakeening Pattern
992 - Model 2: Regular Blue Colored Hairspring, Narrow Straight Line Pattern
992 - Model 3: Referred to as 992E. Original Elinvar Hairspring died blue due to uneven gray color of original elinvar material. Marked "Elinvar" under balance wheel. Wide straight line pattern, except for a few late model Model 2's which were finished as Model 3's, but with the narrow pattern
992B: New Design with new "White Colored" Elinvar Extra Hairspring. Except for a few pre-production prototypes, not marked Elinvar.
Full story:
Back in November i sent a 1914 Hamilton 992 off to a watchmaker for service and restoration (a previous watchmaker had tried to charge me nearly 20k lol and i found this next one on google) i specified new hands, new case, new swan neck as well as a movement service and inspection, mentioned that the balance cock needed looking at (low amplitude unless pushed on) and it probably need a new mainspring.
I send the watch off and here comes the first red flag, he sucked at communication and i kept having to send him emails asking for updates, with every one he would say he was sending the emails off to the wrong person (whose email address i could see since they were forwarded, GDPR anyone?)
After nearly two months of back and forth he says the watch is ready, sends me pictures of it, while looking at the pictures i notice the regulator was buried so i asked him.
He said it was just old pivots and "needed to keep accurate time" big red flag, and this was after i'd paid him the sum of £450.
Then like a day after paying him he emails me stating that the accuracy of the movement wasn't up to his spec and that he'd used 992B parts or something to fix it, at this point i was confused, a 992B is a completely different movement and no parts are interchangable, but i wait for the post wondering what on earth i was getting, i eventually got a box back, not the box i sent him though (R.I.P box for an ornament i thrifted) but i cut some slack since he sent two watches back.
My old 992 (which i haven't looked inside of yet) and the new 992, indeed the serial number is different and it's now a 1923 model (R.I.P the lovely starfort pattern on the keyless works) but i thought nothing of it and have been daily carrying since mid january.
I noticed after about a week or two it was losing approximately 20 seconds per day, i took a time stamped picture and an excel sheet and sent it off to the watchmaker, explaining that the accuracy is not satisfactory for the sum i paid.
He said this kind of error is normal for a chronometer, that it's what the regulator is for, that i shouldn't compare accuracy with another watch but use WWV, and then "please leave me in peace"
I sent back an email, explaining that all samples were taken at the same time of day using time.is, that as a radio ham i have access to some incredibly accurate time sources, and that i would appreciate which sort of screwdriver i need to set the regulator (the whole point was that i didn't need to touch it again, it was supposed to set by someone who knew what they were doing with a timegrapher! i wouldn't have got the swan neck fixed if i knew i'd have to fiddle with it!)
Nothing, radio silence, at this point i'm not sure if he's being nasty deliberately or if whatever email server or computer or whatever he uses hasn't received my reply like it did lots of times before.
But hey, that's not the worst of the story, i'd bought a set of jewellers drivers from a certain big T marketplace and was waiting for them to arrive.
At the beginning of this month i looked at my watch and it had lost 20 minutes, i set it back, a few days later it lost again, i set it back, since then it's been gaining losing whatever it wants, a few days ago it managed to perfectly gain two hours, other times it loses 20 minutes, etc.
I doubt that's something a mere twist of the regulator screw can fix, to further more, about a week ago i set up my phone timelapsing it compared to another watch, both freshly set, while my phone died about 2-3 hours in, the seconds loss was visible and not only that, but it looked like the hour hand was getting hung up on something every hour too, which might explain the sudden minute loss/gain, i have even tried using a webcam to timelapse it for hours and it hasn't caught the losing or gaining (last time lapse was nearly 6 hours at 1 frame per 10 seconds yielding over 1,000 photos that nearly crashed premiere pro when i imported them), seems the observer effect is at play here.
Oh and the crystal has a slight chip in it, very tiny, the hands he gave me aren't that blue, almost corroded, and there's some small rust spots on the chrome clad case.
How should i proceed? i don't really want to spend any more money, i feel like i'm in that mark twain sketch.
The irony was, before he ruined my original movement, that actually seemed to keep better time with the regulator buried then this "serviced" movement
Back in November i sent a 1914 Hamilton 992 off to a watchmaker for service and restoration (a previous watchmaker had tried to charge me nearly 20k lol and i found this next one on google) i specified new hands, new case, new swan neck as well as a movement service and inspection, mentioned that the balance cock needed looking at (low amplitude unless pushed on) and it probably need a new mainspring.
I send the watch off and here comes the first red flag, he sucked at communication and i kept having to send him emails asking for updates, with every one he would say he was sending the emails off to the wrong person (whose email address i could see since they were forwarded, GDPR anyone?)
After nearly two months of back and forth he says the watch is ready, sends me pictures of it, while looking at the pictures i notice the regulator was buried so i asked him.
He said it was just old pivots and "needed to keep accurate time" big red flag, and this was after i'd paid him the sum of £450.
Then like a day after paying him he emails me stating that the accuracy of the movement wasn't up to his spec and that he'd used 992B parts or something to fix it, at this point i was confused, a 992B is a completely different movement and no parts are interchangable, but i wait for the post wondering what on earth i was getting, i eventually got a box back, not the box i sent him though (R.I.P box for an ornament i thrifted) but i cut some slack since he sent two watches back.
My old 992 (which i haven't looked inside of yet) and the new 992, indeed the serial number is different and it's now a 1923 model (R.I.P the lovely starfort pattern on the keyless works) but i thought nothing of it and have been daily carrying since mid january.
I noticed after about a week or two it was losing approximately 20 seconds per day, i took a time stamped picture and an excel sheet and sent it off to the watchmaker, explaining that the accuracy is not satisfactory for the sum i paid.
He said this kind of error is normal for a chronometer, that it's what the regulator is for, that i shouldn't compare accuracy with another watch but use WWV, and then "please leave me in peace"
I sent back an email, explaining that all samples were taken at the same time of day using time.is, that as a radio ham i have access to some incredibly accurate time sources, and that i would appreciate which sort of screwdriver i need to set the regulator (the whole point was that i didn't need to touch it again, it was supposed to set by someone who knew what they were doing with a timegrapher! i wouldn't have got the swan neck fixed if i knew i'd have to fiddle with it!)
Nothing, radio silence, at this point i'm not sure if he's being nasty deliberately or if whatever email server or computer or whatever he uses hasn't received my reply like it did lots of times before.
But hey, that's not the worst of the story, i'd bought a set of jewellers drivers from a certain big T marketplace and was waiting for them to arrive.
At the beginning of this month i looked at my watch and it had lost 20 minutes, i set it back, a few days later it lost again, i set it back, since then it's been gaining losing whatever it wants, a few days ago it managed to perfectly gain two hours, other times it loses 20 minutes, etc.
I doubt that's something a mere twist of the regulator screw can fix, to further more, about a week ago i set up my phone timelapsing it compared to another watch, both freshly set, while my phone died about 2-3 hours in, the seconds loss was visible and not only that, but it looked like the hour hand was getting hung up on something every hour too, which might explain the sudden minute loss/gain, i have even tried using a webcam to timelapse it for hours and it hasn't caught the losing or gaining (last time lapse was nearly 6 hours at 1 frame per 10 seconds yielding over 1,000 photos that nearly crashed premiere pro when i imported them), seems the observer effect is at play here.
Oh and the crystal has a slight chip in it, very tiny, the hands he gave me aren't that blue, almost corroded, and there's some small rust spots on the chrome clad case.
How should i proceed? i don't really want to spend any more money, i feel like i'm in that mark twain sketch.
The irony was, before he ruined my original movement, that actually seemed to keep better time with the regulator buried then this "serviced" movement
It looks like this is the 4th thread you've created on this topic. I'm not sure what else there is to add. When you collect old watches, sometimes you have good luck and sometimes you have bad luck. Same with trying a new watchmaker. Live with the watch as it is, or send it to a new watchmaker and spend your money to see if they can bring it to your standards. The story was a bit hard to follow, but if it's only a matter of 20s/day, I wouldn't worry about it.
Yea, sorry about that, but if it was 20 seconds per day i'd be able to live with it and regulate it, but now it's anything from a few seconds to a few hours per a few hours!
since you mention Pounds you may consider the intervention of the local trading standards office
www.citizensadvice.org.uk
Reporting to Trading Standards
Report a trader who has broken the law by contacting the Citizens Advice consumer service or Advice Direct Scotland.
Did we read that right, a watchmaker tried to charge you 20k for a restoration of a pocket watch worth about 1k?
I got a little bit tired of this topic. It’s just an ordinary pocket watch that lost its accuracy.
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