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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Dear friends ,
I'm a collector of the Zlatoust 191 . In the past I tried to establish a way to date the items according to the range of numeration in the back case and the shape of the case. I analyzed 60 items and these are my conclusions .
We have mainly 3 type of case ( Hommage items are not considered ) :

1a) rounding and flat back case without serials 1b) serial 0001 up to 3000 (1950 - 1960 )
2) rounding back case slightly cone ( 1961 - 1970 ) / serial 3000 up to 8500
3) back case with cone shaped (1971-1975 ) / serial 0001 up to 9500

I found that the items with minutes markers belong to the 1) type of case and they don't have the serial number , and to the 2) type with serial number in the range 5XXX.

No diffrences in the hands between the 3 types.
Radium dial in the 1) and 2) types.

Here is the Type 1b) case with serial in the backcase

Metal Canteen Watch Brass

Here is the Type 1a) without serial and minutes markers dial

Metal Silver


Analog watch Watch Watch accessory Fashion accessory Strap

Here is the Type 2 : rounding back case slightly cone

Analog watch Watch Watch accessory Fashion accessory Strap


Type 2 : the radium dial

Watch Analog watch Watch accessory Fashion accessory Jewellery

Here is the Type 3 case (cone shaped) with serial

Watch Watch accessory Metal Strap Steel


Type 3 case : the dial (not radium anymore according my info)

Watch Watch accessory Analog watch Fashion accessory Strap


Type 2 case (rounding back case slightly cone) production 1961 - 1970 , number in the range "5XXX" with minutes markers.

Watch accessory Watch Analog watch Fashion accessory Metal



Watch Fashion accessory Metal Jewellery

Few suggestions in order to avoid the fakes :
a) check the screws in the dial ( you must see 2 screw : at 10 and between 3 and 4 hrs)
b) check the 3 screws in the crown tube
c) hands : cathedral 3 segment style .
d) band : green rubberized band
e) carton box (mainly red or green )
f) matt steel case only ! avoid polished steel case

WARNING : the radium dial could be dangerous without the glass for the risk of inhalation of radium's dust .

Please feel free to comments my arguments.

Ciao

Luca ( Bologna Italia )
 

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Potresti forse editare il tuo post, aggiungendoci un paio di foto per illustrare le tre forme di cassa? Grazie in anticipo!
 

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Hello Comrade Luca. Thank you for this hugely informative thread. It may be that at some point I decide to acquire one of these interesting pieces, and this will act as an incredibly useful reference thread! It would be excellent if you could show us the front/dials of these watches as well. Thanks again!
 

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Thank you for sharing your research with us, Luca1968!

When I purchased my Zlatoust 191, I did a quick investigation using available images and text on the i-net to date my piece, and concluded that it was made at sometime during the 1960s, and it does fall into the #2 category.

The problem I found when researching was that there are very few images of the movements - which is no doubt due to the fact that it can be difficult to disassemble the watch. Therefore, the only way to date the watches are via changes made to the case/bezel etc, and matching documentation/passports. And the problem with passports, as we are already well aware, is that some sellers will, in order to increase the value of and seemingly legitimize the watch, include any paper documentation from the factory whether an original match to the watch or not.

You may have noticed this yourself during your research.

For example, this piece from my collection of images is photographed beside a document that is dated 1958:


Text Paper Document Font Paper product

And has a green box w/1960s type case back.

Here is a piece with a red box, dating to Mar. 1962:


Font Newsprint Paper Paper product

But with an older style case back.

The chances of getting everyone to open up their watches for analysis is probably not going to happen anytime soon, so for now we will have to work with what we have.

Good work!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thank you for sharing your research with us, Luca1968!

When I purchased my Zlatoust 191, I did a quick investigation using available images and text on the i-net to date my piece, and concluded that it was made at sometime during the 1960s, and it does fall into the #2 category.

The problem I found when researching was that there are very few images of the movements - which is no doubt due to the fact that it can be difficult to disassemble the watch. Therefore, the only way to date the watches are via changes made to the case/bezel etc, and matching documentation/passports. And the problem with passports, as we are already well aware, is that some sellers will, in order to increase the value of and seemingly legitimize the watch, include any paper documentation from the factory whether an original match to the watch or not.

You may have noticed this yourself during your research.

For example, this piece from my collection of images is photographed beside a document that is dated 1958:

View attachment 3039378
View attachment 3039386

And has a green box w/1960s type case back.

Here is a piece with a red box, dating to Mar. 1962:

View attachment 3039362
View attachment 3039370

But with an older style case back.

The chances of getting everyone to open up their watches for analysis is probably not going to happen anytime soon, so for now we will have to work with what we have.

Good work!
Hello Polmax,
I agree with you , It'is not so easy open the 191 and check the movements.
In order to establish a fix point concerning the datation I'm looking for the watch with the papers where the serial in the back of the case is the same with the serial reported in the documents.
I found a 191 with serial 5387 ( 2nd type like your reported 5490 ) with certificate dated 1961 : so we could presume that your reported 5490 were made later and not in 1958 .
In this way we hypothesize that the serial in the back of the case are progressive as the date of the production..... but I'mk not 100% sure .
The 740 serial is a mystery for me ! According to my analysis the serial is not coherent with the datation : in theory the datation should be around middle 50's....
In my opnion the only way to solve the mistery arount this watch is collect the data of the watchs with papers where the serial in the case is equal with the serial in the papers : only in this way we can con sider the data reliable.
This diver , for several reasons , is a very complex "black box" full of misteries .....one of the main fascinating watch , similar for several reasons to our italian masterpiece "Panerai Egiziano"....
 

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Grazie per avere aggiunto le foto! Un cordiale saluto a te e a Bologna!
 

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Grazie!
 

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Great topic, ma davvero hai una collezione di Zlat? Fantastico!
Here's the bottom of mine.

Unfortunately I do not have documentation so I can't confirm any hypothesis.
Certainly, the incision is a bit 'strange, seems to be very old or very fake ;-)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Great topic, ma davvero hai una collezione di Zlat? Fantastico!
Here's the bottom of mine.

Unfortunately I do not have documentation so I can't confirm any hypothesis.
Certainly, the incision is a bit 'strange, seems to be very old or very fake ;-)


dear friend ,
I saw an item with low serial with ( 037X serial ) that was a sort of "Frankestein" , but your item seems different .In your case the incision is a little bit rough . Can you post the dial?
 

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Can you post the dial?
Sure, I can :)
Here few others photos


And finally on the road with NATO straps...


Qua cappuccino e nato troppo stretto...

...and I am very curious to know your opinion about this watch and serial
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Dear Danilao ,
in my opinion the watch is 100% original : dial ok , screws in the right place ....
I saw 2 items very similar with serial 0379/0420/0696.
The 0696 is dated 1970 acccording to the certificate ( in this item the serial in the caseback and in the certificate are equal !) .
For thsi reason your watch could be dated between 1967-1970.
Ciao
19700696B3+3
 

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Just in case you have not seen my watch:

View attachment 3043402
Like Geoff I would like to own an original 191 and this thread has helped to determine what to look out for.
Whilst much has been discussed about the outside, the discussion has been less informative about the movement. I suspect some have had parts, or the whole movement, replaced with regular Zlatoust pocket watch ones.
I've read it is a better quality Type-1 movement and I have seen the versions with twin bridges and the fused bridge, as in Polmax's example. I would be grateful if someone can describe what to look out for. I'm guessing the materials used were of a higher quality and that their production was unique i.e. not just selected from normal Type-1 production. I do note that the pocket watch location screw holes are present.

Cheers
Worzel
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Dear Worzel , it's true , it is not easy to find info about the movemnet . Personally I didn't open the main part of my Zlatoust (5) , it is not so easy...and the radium deal is not so nice...
Here is the movement of my "minutes dial Zlatoust".
 

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Dear Worzel , it's true , it is not easy to find info about the movemnet . Personally I didn't open the main part of my Zlatoust (5) , it is not so easy...and the radium deal is not so nice...
Here is the movement of my "minutes dial Zlatoust".
Luca, I can see a couple of differences from Polmax's movement. 1) No regulator. 2) Stopwatch logo in place of pocket watch logo.
 
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