Might be good to mention that Casio also does other things to protect the finish on some Grade 2 Ti watches - like add DLC coating. This is found for ex on the TVA, and on some of the analog MR-Gs. In my experience, Casio's DLC is very durable.

 

emm... that's the point I'm trying to make. The DLC coating is applied using a PVD process, but it is on a grade 2 titanium substrate which is soft. That's why you regularly find damaged DLC on the TB/TVA. My whole post was about the durability of coatings being affected by the hardness of the substrate - DLC is the coating, Grade 2 titanium (in your example) is the substrate; Grade 2 Titanium being soft explains why the DLC coating is easy to damage on a TB/TVA despite the hardness of DLC. Observe:

The MRG-B5000B has DLC coating PVD applied to a Dat55G/Grade-5 titanium substrate, which is much much harder than grade 2, and is therefore a more durable and longer lasting finish, which makes sense since it is almost triple the cost of the TVA/TB.

You can imagine the mind of a Casio design engineer as he/she gleefully designs ever more next-level models with better and better metals that result in longer lasting finishes. Why? Because he, like the rest of us, wants to own a watch whose finish doesn't scratch off, and luckily for Casio, they can design a $4k square and actually have people pay for it.

In another post, I show off my newly modded square with a TFC bezel and bracelet: steel substrate with a DLC finish. Why bother paying for a $4k MRG-B5000B with a DLC coating, when I get the "same thing" using TFC parts? Because the TFC substrate is steel, and the MRG substrate is Dat55G/Grade-5 titanium, that's why; it makes a difference to how long the finish will last.

 

There are many metal Casios that have black IP coating but not DLC. That's why I specifically mentioned DLC.

I understand the point of your post. I'm not disputing that the DLC can be damaged or that it's easier to damage if the underlying substrate is softer, but I don't think it's quite as easy to do as your post suggests, even on grade 2 Ti. That's based on my own experiences with my analog MR-G and my TVA. Both have taken multiple seat belt buckle hits, among other things, and so far - no damage noted. This is esp impressive with my analog MR-G, which is going on 7 yrs old, and is still pristine looking.

 

That's based on my own experiences with my analog MR-G and my TVA. Both have taken multiple seat belt buckle hits

Seat buckle hardware is hard to meat, but it's not that hard nor sharp compared to other things. For example, the sharp, fine scratches on GK's TVA above.

The bottom line is that the softer the substrate metal, the more likely it will suffer from penetration damage of the type measured by the Rockewll or Vickers tests, for example, where the damage is inflicted perpendicular to the surface. The harder a coating is, the less likely it will be to suffer from abrasion damage of the type measured by the Taber test (ASTM D4060) or scratch tests where the damage is inflicted parallel to the surface.

Note: when we refer to the bulk "hardness" of a substrate, we're actually talking about a combination of properties including toughness and the various moduli.

These are two different mechanisms of damage so it's useful to conduct a thought experiment to help understand this.

• Hard substrate, hardcoating: DLC on titanium carbide
  • very resistant to penetration, impact damage, and to surface scratching
  • but also very heavy
• Hard substrate, softcoating: blueing on case hardened steel
  • resistant to pen damage, but blueing readily scratched off
  • will stay ding-free but have plenty of superficial defects revealing the underlying metal
• Soft substrate, softcoating: light anodizing on aluminum
  • easily dinged and gouged, readily scratched and scuffed
  • light but acquires and shows damage easily
• Soft substrate, hardcoating: DLC on tin
  • highly resistant to light pressure scuffing and scratching, in direction parallel to surface, but very susceptible to dings and digs
  • sort of pointless

T4P's observations are as valid and likely as others'. This is why the results of standardized testing is really how we should judge how likely a coating or material is to sustain damage. But individual damage is idiosyncratic. Meaning it varies and may be unique from person to person.

In my work, I've mostly carried out abrasion testing of surface coatings. For the types of applications and materials, plastics of various types, that I have worked with, the base resin isn't really considered for its bulk hardness. For metallurgists, though, it's a much more common thing.

 

This is very interesting info. I was eyeing the TCC as the design and glossiness are really working for me, but was writing it off to a degree as I thought the finish would be really fragile.

This is making me rethink this one, however I'd still need to find a great deal on it lol.

 

I've found some related info from Sinn that might be helpful. This is from Sinn's technology glossary.
Sinn Uhren: Black Hard Coating

The description of "black hard coating" and related characteristics as it applies to Sinn watches:

 

Many thanks to @grizzlykoala for starting this thread and offering such useful posts, and to @Ginseng108 for contributing his expertise.

I had to search for this video for a few minutes. This is the model of MR-G that I own. Just before the test started, I found myself saying "Don't do it, don't do it, don't do it, DON'T DO IT!!"

 

Btw....I once had abrasions on the bracelet of my MR-G that looked similar to what you see in the video above after the wire brush attack. And, mine just wiped right off too. (& it was then that I noticed that I, in fact, did not have a heart attack.. )

That's great to hear!! I have a TVA incoming. What is the underlying metal in your analog MR-G? Grade 2?

I'm not certain. I never checked before buying the watch. But based on previous threads on this forum and people who have asked Casio, I think it's grade 2.

I also wonder....if by chance there is a difference in the application process for DLC on MR-Gs vs. other g-shocks? Could it be thicker, or could there be other differences that might make the MR-G's finish just a little more durable??

 

Some really smart posts and great information here. I bookmarked these in my watch file.

Thanks everyone!

 

this is actually not easy to do on Swiss gold PVD watches

Is this referring to Swiss watches that specifically state the gold layer was applied via a PVD process? I'd imagine a lot of the higher-end Swiss plated watches would use an electrochemical process rather then PVD (e.g., gold electroplating). That should leave a thicker layer of gold, which would presumably be more resilient.

 

See also Ginseng108's post above yours. My understanding is that electroplating is a cheaper process and not really that great from anecdotal evidence. I noticed when Swiss companies started to actively advertise PVD as a feature, presumably because they thought it was much better than electroplating.

 

Here's a chart taken from SeiyaJapan's blog at: Scratch-resistant "Dia-Shiled" "Duratect"

It was specifically for comparison of Seiko's Diashield to the coatings used by Citizen. But based on this extremely informative thread, I now realize that this chart doesn't give the full picture. For ex, what is the hardness of the underlying substrates used with these Citizen coatings? (are they applied to SS, grade 2 Ti, grade 5 Ti? - and I'm sure it varies according to model)

 

For ex, what is the hardness of the underlying substrates used with these Citizen coatings? (are they applied to SS, grade 2 Ti, grade 5 Ti? - and I'm sure it varies according to model)

Citizen uses grade 2 titanium. I did research on this a few weeks ago. There's a Japanese vlog where they visit the Casio office, and an engineer explains the design process of the MRG-B5000s. He said, that they didn't use Grade 5 titanium for the bracelet because it is really hard to drill those small holes in Grade 5 (which would make the bracelet cost more than the watch), but it is easy to do larger cuttings/holes, hence the case and bezel is grade 5, and the bracelet is Dat55G. Although I'm a little confused because they claim that Dat55G is 3 times harder than Grade 2, and certainly Grade 5 titanium is NOT 3 times harder than Grade 2, more like 50%; but maybe Gr5 is just harder to machine Grade 5 for whatever reason?

So then I did some research into what other brands used, and found out that Citizen uses Grade 2 as their substrate for their coatings and higher-end brands like Omega use grade 5, and Blancpain uses grade 23 titanium. I wonder if Omega only uses grade 5 titanium for their case only (like Casio)? Tudor uses grade 2 titanium.

 

Yes, machinability doesn't necessarily track linearly with hardness.

The alloy composition and heat treatment can significantly affect not just drilling/cutting but also polishing ease or difficulty. As you can see on this table of metals machinability ratings, there is a fair range of variation in how easy it is to machine, cut, grind titanium and its various alloys. In fact, Grade 2 is just about the easiest grade to machine so it's not surprising that it's such a popular and common grade for low-demanding applications like watch cases.

 

Here's some new (to me) information about coatings:

.. so here 3 processes are detailed:
1. DLC on Grade 2 titanium: eg. regular Titanium squares (TVA, TB etc.)
2. DLC on hardened titanium: process used on DLC coated MRGs (not MRG-B5000)
3. DLC on DAT55G: new process for MRG-B5000

.. they go on to explain that the fact that DAT55G is hard all the way through, and not just a layer, causes the DLC layer to adhere to the substrate much better.

 

Useful info, great find.
Ah, so the MR-G is case hardened and MRG-B5k is through or fully hardened. Functionally speaking, they should be equivalent in terms of performance against scratches, scuffs, and light dings.

 

Useful info, great find.
Ah, so the MR-G is case hardened and MRG-B5k is through or fully hardened. Functionally speaking, they should be equivalent in terms of performance against scratches, scuffs, and light dings.

If that's the case (no pun intended), then personally I would be very comfortable with the finish protection on the MRG squares -- again, given my own experiences with my analog MRG which has been very very good at resisting scratches and scuffs.

 

It's a fascinating subject, isn't it? Have you guys never come across my thread in the Citizen forum? I wrote tens of pages on the subject of surface treatments and titanium, with the focus obviously being on Citizen. If Citizen uses grade 5 titanium, that is news to me. By their own admission they only use grade 1 (see post #550), which they then process in various ways. They have used titanium alloys in the past, but very limited, which I discuss on several occasions. There really is a lot of information in there, I have researched this subject for 7 years and counting. If you don't want to read all 69 pages, you can use the below list as a guide. Don't pay attention to the text in the preview, I think the preview window takes the text from the first post on the page, not the text from the actual post I am linking to.

Edit: Ginseng108 thinks the list is too long and that I'm bragging, so tough luck for you guys, you'll just have to read the whole thread.

 

Thanks CitizenPromaster, I am very interested to learn, but you have posted so much stuff it will take me a while to get through it. Thank-you for all your hard work!!!

 

It has taken some people several weeks to get through all of it, but for those interested in materials science (or science in general) it is a very rewarding read!

I could get into some of the things that have been said in this thread, but most of it has been covered in the Ti thread. Also, it might soon become a debate with @Ginseng108 and I don't think that will be very rewarding. Ginseng108, you are obviously a smart and knowledgeable fellow, and I was excited when you engaged in another thread of mine and offered some very interesting ideas, but as soon as I challenged them and came up with alternatives, you backed out completely and you didn't even respond to what I wrote, which was disappointing if not a little rude, because I was looking forward to the interaction. So I am hesitant to get into the finer details of everything in this thread, since I don't know how open you are to feedback from another smart and knowledgeable fellow. I'd hate for it to turn into a p*ssing match, I've had enough of those with HorologicOptic in the Titanium thread. If we can learn together, that's great, if you'd rather go it alone, that's also fine.

So let me just say that there is some interesting discussion on a few of the subjects in this thread (Casio, eggshell effect, substrate vs coating) in post #873 and onwards:
The definitive Citizen Titanium Thread / Super Titanium / Ti + IP / Duratect / MRK / DLC | Page 44 | WatchUSeek Watch Forums

I will add here that when Citizen applies DLC to stainless steel, it seems much less scratch resistant than when Citizen applies DLC to (grade 1) titanium. I will also add that Citizen does not apply DLC directly to their titanium. They use an intermediate layer that increases the adhesion significantly. Details about this secret sauce are in the Titanium thread.

If the lower performance of DLC on stainless steel is due to the lack of this intermediate layer, or due to the interaction between DLC and stainless steel, or both, I can't say with confidence.

Let me end on a humble note. Despite my years of research, I am not a materials scientist, so I like to stick to direct sources rather than hearsay, and I try to state it clearly when I am making an educated guess or when I am speculating, and I often correct myself when new research proofs my earlier notions wrong.

 

@CitizenPromaster ,
There's no need to single me out but it seems you're holding some sort of grudge ??? and you're already expecting to have a problem with me so we're already starting off on the wrong foot. I don't even remember the thread or post you're talking about.

You are already presuming an outcome yet you don't know me. You could have responded to my one and only question in the Citizen forum but you didn't, instead coming here to Casio, where I frequent and have found a friendly community, just to kick up dust.

Perhaps you don't realize that in an open forum, we are at liberty to respond to whomever we chose and are obligated to no one no matter the expectation. No one may demand of any other. And I tend to avoid the pompous, pontificating, black/white, "smarter than thou" types so perhaps that tells you something.

You are knowledgeable and invested, that's easy to tell. But you're also a show-off and a bit arrogant it seems. Your above posts shows this. Instead of posting and bragging about the many threads and then sledgehammer linking them here for effect, you could have selected the one or three most relevant to the discussion here and actually helped forward the discussion rather than bog it down dead.

As far as openness to feedback, I would say that I'm at least as open and receptive as you think you are. But like you, and probably most folks, if a first substantial encounter is a scold and lecture, I wouldn't expect it to go well. Would you?

BTW, you could also have reached out by PM. I don't think the forum staff prefer to have this kind of piss-battle in the open so I'll anticipate their input and stop myself here.

 

@Ginseng108 Your reply is very enlightening. So I'm a pompous, pontificating, black/white, "smarter than thou" type, a show-off and arrogant? I made that "sledgehammer" list because in the past people asked for a table of contents, because a 60+ page can be overwhelming. Usually I only share this list privately, but I thought I would make an exception this time because it allows the G-Shock forum people to only read things that they find particularly interesting, and the point of a forum is to share knowledge. I guess that is bragging now?

I will spare you my psychoanalysis of you. I'll be over in the Citizen forum if anyone needs me, so you don't have to worry about me "kicking up dust in your friendly community". I wish you good times on WUS!

 

 

Hey @grizzlykoala, I apologize for my part in derailing the thread you started.
I hope you got the information you're looking for. It seems that you found some good info on your own. Let's keep trying to figure this out. As always, personal experience of the users is helpful and appreciated for making sense of things about the G-Shocks we all love and enjoy.

 

No worries, I've had my share of spirited exchanges so I can't judge

 

What I'd really like is for people to share their stories of durability of the MRG-B5000B or MRG-B5000BA. By all that's been shared, plus the very few anecdotes I've found, the MRG-B5000A has Casio's most durable finish. Is this true? Please share your experiences! Thanks!!

 

How about I kick the fire in a different direction... I'm about to take ownership of a GMS-2100 with what Casio calls 'black ion plating' on the steel bezel. I'm getting this piece to do some modding, with the ultimate goal of a utilitarian tool for times when I can't wear a GPS/Bluetooth/WiFi connected wrist computer because of job constraints (so in love with the functionality of my new Garmin Forerunner 965).

The project question is what/how would you go about removing or at least effectively reducing the reflective finish of the IP coated SS bezel?

I'm going to have the thing in pieces so I can treat the bezel separately from the rest of the watch if that affects a method you'd recommend. If it was standard stainless I'd do a couple bluing treatments that can be repaired/redone as needed in the future. Aesthetics take backseat to effective reduction of glare and glint.

 

How about I kick the fire in a different direction... I'm about to take ownership of a GMS-2100 with what Casio calls 'black ion plating' on the steel bezel. I'm getting this piece to do some modding, with the ultimate goal of a utilitarian tool for times when I can't wear a GPS/Bluetooth/WiFi connected wrist computer because of job constraints (so in love with the functionality of my new Garmin Forerunner 965).

The project question is what/how would you go about removing or at least effectively reducing the reflective finish of the IP coated SS bezel?

I'm going to have the thing in pieces so I can treat the bezel separately from the rest of the watch if that affects a method you'd recommend. If it was standard stainless I'd do a couple blueing treatments that can be repaired/redone as needed in the future. Aesthetics take backseat to effective reduction of glare and glint.

View attachment 17465211

Getting the bezel beadblasted is your solution.

 

Interesting. So, since the new 40th anniversary models have recrystallized steel that is 3x harder than regular steel, hopefully we can expect the coating to last longer vs. the regular steel models.

 

Does anyone know if there's a company I can send parts to be ion plated?

And would it be feasible to do a bracelet, or is an assembled collection of parts like that just not practical?

 

I do not think it would be practical, but there are places that do coatings of all kinds. Most of the ones I am aware of plate handguns. I see your flag is across the Pacific, so I am not sure what your budget is, but here in Chicago (USA) there are local places. There is a place I know called Nobert Plating, but there are MANY places that plate parts, but the only ones I can think of that would do retail service are glun plating shops. Here in the US a lot of people will plate their guns, supposedly for better corrosion protection, but likely because it looks cool. When a buddy shows you his new toy with a black or grey (and once bright white--like toilet bowl white) surface, they never mention corrosion-resistance. Many of these places will even do gold plating (I assume for the LGBT community--I cannot see any other group gold-plating a firearm). You can also buy kits, but they do not always turn out so well. You need to degrease the surfaces, but often you need to remove other coatings, and this is where people mark-up the surface, and every mark looks 10x worse after plating. You need to get the finish of each item PERFECT before you plate. The best way to explore surface finishes is with Seiko. If you look at a Seiko 5, a $1,200 SPB model, then compare that to an SNR model, and you can really observe the different levels of polish. Brushing is a bit more subjective, but the deep directional brushing you see on Seiko's above a $1,000 is a decent example, but higher-end watches often make design choices in finish from an even satin finish to the deep directional brushing on a Royal Oak bracelet. You MUST do that BEFORE you plate with those little jeweler-plating kits. If I were doing a bracelet, I would do it link by link. Honestly, it is not worth it. You can buy a decent Seiko, Rado, Longines for the cost of doing this, and if you include the cost of your labor, you could buy an 18k Tissot or an 18k used Longines.

FYI, one of the reasons people splurge on a full gold bracelet and watch is because you can refinish them. I know men who would have saved a lot of money had they simply bought a gold watch, but that was a long time ago when gold was $350-$450 per ounce. Now it is $3400, and the prices reflect this. But still, you can get a gold Day-Date for under $10k, and it would probably be easier to get a part-time job for your nights and weekends and buy one of those, instead of finishing and plating a bracelet. Or, you you could find an AliExpress bracelet that fits, then buy half a dozen for spare links to replace scratched ones. I have found really nice bracelets on AliExpress for $30 to $100. The only downside is that some come with fake branding, so you need to swap out the clasp. Avoid the cheaper bracelets. My cutoff was $20, but there were still a few dogs under $30 (I was spending my money on some of this, but mostly other people's).