You may be right, but lume isn’t high up on the common consumers list when shopping for a watch.

 

Then buy a dress watch. There are entire threads here dedicated to diver lume shots.

 

But, on a dive watch? Especially a "professional" diver?

 

I suspect that the number of people buying a 'professional' diver that need diver specs/performance is about the same as the number of people the buy 'running' shoes that actually run in them 😉.

 

The SLA line has stellar lume. SPB not so much. But I honestly couldn’t care less one way or the other. I’m a huge Seiko diver fan and that’s a very low priority for me.

 

Yet, that is one aspect that is supposed to separate divers from girly dress watches, no?

 

The SLA line has stellar lume. SPB not so much. But I honestly couldn’t care less one way or the other. I’m a huge Seiko diver fan and that’s a very low priority for me.

 

Even the SLA has begun cutting corners. The SLA081 which is the latest top tier limited edition Marine Master has shallow printed lume inside the indices instead of the deep fill to the brim inside the indices of the older Marine Masters like the SLA021/023. And it’s not as bright as the older models.

So I agree with the OP lume has become a secondary consideration with many divers now unfortunately.

 

I have some sub 100 dollar Chinese homages that have really good lume. If they can afford to do it right, then so can Seiko and Citizen if they cared to....

 

Yup. My Dagaz Cav-1 divers embarass Seiko and Citizen.

 

Dude, I think the craziest part of all of this is that we are literally witnessing JAPANESE PEOPLE CUTTING CORNERS.

That country has generational restaurants over 100 years old that sell one freaking dish that never changes. The biggest watch brand in that country is cutting corners, what is the world coming to lol

 

I just thought that lume was overrated, none of my lumed watches seem to last long enough to be really useful, they can be very bright in the beginning, but it just doesn't last, maybe an hour or two at a stretch. It's why I love tritium so much, it's not as bright as lume is initially, but it is bright enough and you don't even notice it glowing unless it's dark enough to need it.


A lot of the "Japanese" watches are actually made overseas, even the ones that say "Made in Japan" (I've heard that the rules around that are as loose or looser than the Swiss Made rules) such as Casio, Citizen, Seiko, I have a fair few and most are made in Thailand or China.

That being said, some are actually still made in Japan, I think the MT-G line from Casio are all made in Japan, as is the MR-G line (you'd hope so at the prices they're charging..) and Grand Seiko of course.

 

A daytime lume shot…I’m good. I prefer the way Citizen does it on this model. The hand design and lume make it easy to read, day or night.

 

I have an older BN0151, and it is brighter than my new BN1024 "Professional". That is the point of the thread.

 

I commented on Seiko's lume cost-cutting a couple of years ago and got criticised for it. We just get cheap-looking round blobs of lume on most Seiko divers these days. It's still decently bright but not the class-leading lume of old. Oh yeah and the price has gone up.

 

My favourite lume monsters from my collection:

Sinn U1, Orient SD300, MM300, Tuna 300. Nice to see the Seiko SLA winning this round...

 

And none of them are under $1k......

I bought several microbrand watches under $500 that will stand toe to toe with those in the lume department.

 

Perhaps it is a design decision. Average buyers may not prefer super bright lume... going to the movies more than the time they spend diving for instance.

 

You should buy a Citizen Orca. The watch is funky and the lume is supeb. Lasts bright, all night

It also has a lumed buckle

 

You should buy a Citizen Orca. The watch is funky and the lume is supeb. Lasts bright, all night View attachment 19264185 It also has a lumed buckle View attachment 19264187

I was just going to suggest this. My new Orca has just as impressive lume as a Citizen diver I had over a decade ago.

I assume yours isn't the PVD version? Because I've never noticed that my buckle logo is lumed too. Although I've also never checked, lol.

 

The 5KX and Gen 4 Monster have stronger initial glow from the lumed indices and hands than the Turtle and the MM200. They’re comparable to the lume on Breitling divers.

FWIW, all of the above have stronger lume than Orient and Orient Star. Lorier lume is good but Baltic is weak sauce. San Martin is great. Invicta, Tissot, and Hamilton have the least amount of lume strength in anything I’ve witnessed.

 

Especially when it comes to lume. I have older Seikos and older Citizens. I have recently purchased new watches from both brands.

My observation is that both brands are cutting corners, especially when it comes to lume. Whether it is thinner layers and fewer of them, or cheaper lume that isn't top tier as far as glow endurance, both brands are cutting corners. Yet they raise prices. A sad turn of events.

For example, my new Seiko Shogun doesn't glow as brightly or as long as my SKX173 from 2001. Don't even try to compare it to my VSA Dive Master 500 Mecha. Not even a Seiko Tuna beats that.

Microbrands, capitalize on the big boys' stupidity. Now is your chance.

I've been saying this for quite awhile. Seiko Prospex diver dial quality has taken an absolute nosedive, while prices have shot up to $1300-1500. On the left is the previous gen SPB 62MAS reinterpretation. On the right is the current gen SPB 62MAS reinterpretation. High quality markers that were 90% as good as what you got with MM300 have been replaced with cheap garbage, while the watches have gotten pricier.

 

I've been saying this for quite awhile. Seiko Prospex diver dial quality has taken an absolute nosedive, while prices have shot up to $1300-1500. On the left is the previous gen SPB 62MAS reinterpretation. On the right is the current gen SPB 62MAS reinterpretation. High quality markers that were 90% as good as what you got with MM300 have been replaced with cheap garbage, while the watches have gotten pricier.

View attachment 19264253

Maybe the specific models make a difference.

My SPB297 (62MAS re-edition Save the Ocean Glacier) is about 3 years old and the dial has applied, silver lined, indices with well filled and centered lume plots.

My new SPB509 (Heritage Diver GMT 60th anniversary special edition) also has applied, silver lined, indices with well filled and centered lume plots.

Maybe the special edition models have upgraded dial standards?

 

On a happy note, i own a 2018 Hamilton khaki automatic and the lume was never very good, the pprice has doubled since but the lume on these is noticably better today

 

Microbrands rule.

And Seiko and Citizen need to step up and include fully lumed
sapphire/ceramic bezels.

 

And Seiko and Citizen need to step up and include fully lumed
sapphire/ceramic bezels.

Hard pass from me on that. First off, it won't look like a Seiko anymore. And secondly, unless it's done really, really well, it just makes the watch look 'cheap', imo. But I feel the same way about sunburst dials, so maybe I'm just weird.

If they want to do it on their higher tier stuff, sure, whatever. I'm not buying that anyways. But leave my Turtles/Samurais/etc. alone. Don't want sapphire/ceramic on those anywhere.

As far as the original topic, I haven't noticed any real difference. The lume on my SRP777 is as good as the lume on my 173/013, etc. No discernable difference to me, in brightness anyways. I could do without whatever shiny coating they're putting on the newer stuff though. Not a fan.

 

As long as they are readable in the dark, all good with me....

 

my new Seiko Shogun doesn't glow as brightly or as long as my SKX173 from 2001

But you still bought it and didn't send it back. As long as their customers continue to do that then they have no motivation to make it better.

 

Seiko and Citizen need to step up and include fully lumed sapphire/ceramic bezels.

it won't look like a Seiko anymore.

I will speak more about Seiko, since I have more of them than of Citizen (only 3).

I wonder if Seiko can really claim to "have a look" in any positive sense.
I mean, yes they do "have a look" but not in a way that would identify them as a leader in design.

Sure, they've had their "hits" - Tuna, 62 MAS, SKX007, Monster, SPORK, etc -- and all those are deserving of all the fame and praise they have enjoyed. Kinda like Elton John in the 70's.

But today? I am not sure.
I have not seen a single model that made me stop and curse my wallet for not being fatter with cash.
I have not bought a Seiko - even to modify - in close to 10 years. There is simply no reason to, when other available options are SO plentiful, SO MUCH better finished, and SO much cheaper.

One could argue that it is precisely this styleless, bland look that sells so well to the majority of their market, if not to the WUS crowd.
Ya, ok, I can see that, and that we WUSsies tend to be myopic in our criticism.

But with that said, my question is: How much longer can Seiko hold out being so "uniquely" boring, so dull, so bland? And this, on top of declining quality + increased prices? How is this formula supposed to work exactly?

The competition for a market share is fierce, even without taking Apple and Samsung watches into consideration. Microbrands and even Chinese copy watches are often much better now than Seiko in quality, and superior in design, whether original or copies. But especially if copied, since the copies are usually of the very best designs to begin with.

 

Microbrands and even Chinese copy watches are often much better now than Seiko in quality, and superior in design, whether original or copies. But especially if copied, since the copies are usually of the very best designs to begin with.

I can't answer your question, unfortunately. I don't work for Seiko. I will say that, for me, Seiko does have a 'look' or 'style' that I associate with being uniquely theirs. Not sure how to describe it, but it's there. I own some Chinese copy watches, and I like them. But their copies of Seikos don't really look like Seikos to me, even if they do use what some would consider to be higher quality materials and superior finishing.

To me - Seiko isn't sapphire crystals, which look completely different and have a different 'feel'. I'm not a huge fan of them, actually. The reflections really bug me. Seiko also isn't ceramic inserts or super shiny parts, which I assume are meant to project a feeling of quality but just end up looking cheap to me in almost all cases. I guess I see Seiko, even if it's no longer the case, as they were 'back in the day' - a manufacturer of simple, robust watches (Mostly dive stuff comes to mind because that's what I like, personally.) without all of the unnecessary frills. They worked, and in most cases, worked pretty well for a long, long time without being babied or fussed with. That Seiko may not be around anymore due to the price increases you mentioned and the move to more 'premium' offerings, although I do see that 'DNA' sticking around in one form or another like the Turtle re-issue or the , but that's how I see them.

 

My Observation on the state of Seiko and Citizen

Your “observation” was only about lume. Hardly the “state” of things with Seiko and Citizen.

Both are doing just fine selling millions of watches per year. Both Seiko and Citizen are producing upper tier watches in the $1-10K range that feature desirable technologies (high beat movements, Spring Drive, high accuracy quartz, titanium construction, Zaratzu polishing, incredible dials, etc.).

Perhaps you just need to focus your search to watches that feature killer lume.

 

You missed the point of my post. Try reading it again. It is about obvious cost cutting while prices keep going up. I used the decrease in quantity/quality of lume as an example. Good thing I didn't start talking about chapter ring and bezel alignment and flimsy bracelet clasps.

 

I don't have any real and recent Citizen/Seiko dive watches. Closest I have is a Citizen BN0220-16E, purchased used, which must have been produced '21-'24, and one of those new Seiko 5 SRPL91 releases.

The Citizen is an absolute lume monster, and the Seiko is plenty luminous. All I really need is enough lume to check the time early morning, and not many of my watches with lumed features fail at this. Both the Citizen and Seiko hold their own.

Oddly enough, the Seiko 5 seems to have true lume infill, rather that the pillow look.

 

I wouldn’t say lume alone speaks of the state of Citizen and Seiko, but I agree that it’s important, particularly on a diver.

Now I can’t say anything about the brands this thread is about, as the last time I bought a Seiko was in 2014 (since sold) and the lume on that is great. There is only a Grand Seiko left in the stable, and it’s more GADA than diver.

From my dive watches, the lume on my Orient is amazing. It’s from 5 years ago. It just goes on all night. This is a list of best to worst in terms of lume in my collection:

1. Orient
2. Doxa
3. Omega SMP
4. Omega PO
And a distant 5 is the two Oris Diver Sixty Fives.

 

If lume important to you for any reason, then simply buy a watch that is known to have strong lasting lume. Not all do.

'Nuff said.

 

For some context of how to do markers properly. You'll notice the distinct lack of pad printed blobs, no one else would imagine charging $3,000 for that.

 

Just for the sake of conversation, these are about as zoomed in photos as I can take. All the watches are mine and all photos were just taken.

This is my new SPB509

For comparison, this is my 15 year old Shogun

I think the Shogun when purchased new back then would cost about the same as the SPB509 today. The indices seem comparable.

Here is my MM300

Compared to my much newer SLA017

I would say the MM300 is comparable to the SLA017.

For all practical purposes none of these differences are visible to the naked eye.

 

Sorry, but I will never understand the big deal over lume. I guess useful if you actually dive but other than that seems to not matter much.
If I know I am going to need to check the time under dark conditions I just wear one of my watches with a lighted display or indiglo , etc. Works far better than any lume and doesn’t fade out as time passes.

Seems the only way any lume could never work through the night unless you were in bright sunlight and as soon as the sunsets hop in bed and go to sleep. In the wintertime when the sunsets at 4:30 PM or when there is little sunlight lume doesn’t sound like a workable solution for tell the the time in the dark at night.

 

Sorry, but I will never understand the big deal over lume. I guess useful if you actually dive but other than that seems to not matter much.

It’s a sign of attention to detail and can be a measure of quality. Blancpain, Tudor, Omega, Breitling, and Rolex all use high quality very bright lume. It’s a sign of their seriousness and commitment to the watches still being functional (even though mostly functioning as jewelry rather than a necessary diving tool nowadays.). The brands try to provide the top spec in all regards and the collectors and enthusiasts appreciate that.

Seiko wanting to compete at a higher level with Swiss brands and going backwards with this primary functionality (for a dive watch) is going to leave enthusiasts like myself questioning the value as prices continue to escalate. Charging more and cutting corners isn’t going to sit well.

Also, it’s clear you don’t see the difference because it isn’t important to you. But to those of us who value lume and use our watches to check the time at 4:00am it is a big consideration on the buying process. I have passed over a few of the newer high end Seiko’s only due to the poor lume. So it certainly can affect their bottom line it has from my purchasing.