Reacting so I can read back the answers! Love the criteria, we have the same taste

 

Have you looked into H. Moser & Cie.?

 

Yes. A Pioneer Perpetual. The older version without the written month. Ticks all your boxes.

Cincy

 

Dear all, I need your thoughts and views to choose my last watch (famous last words, I know).

Since "High-end" means different things to different people, here are a few things that I'd consider for my "high-end watch".

Entry criteria

• Readability (Think GS SBGJ021 without date window, dark textured dial with superlative finish on indices and hands)
• Immaculate movement design and finish -> should be visible on the rear-side of the watch. Think Romain.G, Gronefeld brothres, Kari.V, Philip.Dufour etc but a poor person's versions of it
• Movement size to be commensurate with the size of the case. Itty-bitty movement in a hulking case is a no-no

Preferences and limitations

• Less than 25K USD AVG street price (New/used - in excellent/very-good condition or NOS)
• Case <= 42mm, 39mm preferred. Should wear like a 39-ish. Small wrist person here - 16.5
• Thickness no more than 13mm, I'm not too much into ultra-thins either
• Prefer time only watches, date acceptable, Réserve de Marche as long it is discreet or on the movement side
• White metal case strongly preferred (Pd, Pt, Steel) - Red gold is borderline acceptable
• Indices > Arabic numerals. Roman numerals are not my taste, although can be compromised if the movement side exceeds expectations

Things that I do care about, in the order of preference

• Polished gleaming interior angle chamfer/anlage - at least 5 clearly visible ones, not just a token one thrown in
• Immaculately finished wheels and pinions - think polished leaves with bevelled edges, polished pivot sink. Note - polishing at the cost of movement operation / efficiency IMHO is not acceptable
• All screws to be black/specular polish on the surface with chamfering on the circumference and slot. A few heat blued screws are OK, as long as all of them have chamfering on the slot and circumference
• Most jewels and screws to be surrounded by wide black-polished sink. Gold chatons, are a minor plus
• Black polished flat surfaces other than screw heads - Extra points if there are curved surfaces with black/specular-polish - think tourbillion bridges, balance-cocks, regular gear bridges
• Large Free sprung balance with swan-neck regulator
• Snailing on the barrel and other large wheels - double snail-ing gets double points J, think Mortiz Grossman's triple
• Tasteful Engraving a plus

What I don't care about - no particular order

• Lume or precious metals. Precious metals are nice, but will go for steel if it saves money
• Chronograph or other visual features that clutter up the dial
• Tourbillon - unless it brings in a conical/cylindrical bridge with specular finish AND the tourbillon is less intrusive (preferably not visible) on the dial side
• New / used - I don't mind buying a used watch in excellent/very-good condition
• Heritage of the brand, history, memory, name etc.
• Theme - aviation, automotive, war, event, anniversary etc.
• Limited edition or watch gender
• Who made the watch or the story behind them or their great grandmother- I tend to admire the watch than the person who made it. Don't get me wrong, I have huge respect and regard for the luminaries but don't want to pay for just the name, I'll pay for the work
• Where the watch comes from/is-manufactured - I don't care which country, town, province the watch comes from
• Seal - Geneva, PP, Fluerier, chronometer etc, etc. happy to have one slapped on the watch as long as I don't have to pay for it. Just show me the report and the 6 positions that it is tested in, I'm a happy puppy
• How it is made - machine, artificial intelligence of by 15 diamond-paste wielding virgin elves hunkered in a bunker for 13 years. Again, huge respect for people who do everything with their own hands, but If a specular polish is achieved by a machine, I'm all for it
• Movements that grow a platina over time and need special care to service (So Lange is down the priority list)
• Watches with Proprietary screws on cases and movements that even a skilled watch maker with regular set of tools will shy away from (So Richard Mille is out, not that I could afford one, lol) . "Open" movements preferred; if push comes to shove, I'll should be able to service the watch myself
• High beat or super accurate watches - don't hate them, just care less. I'll be happy with a low beat with a Breguet/Philips over-coil ; that said, I do love the GS high beat that I have, but for a different reason. I do own an Oceanus when I need an accurate watch - thank you

Watches that I have and have looked at and move on

• Have GS SBGJ021, GS SBGR305, Chopard with the 96.1 movement with Geneva seal
• Looked at / moved on from - Patek calatravas, Breguet 5177 and ilk, UJ Alfred, entry level Langes, Mortiz Grossman, entry level VC and APs
• AHCI produced watches... way beyond my budget, but a used Uhrwerk is tatalisingly close.

Does anyone else's high-end match or is similar to the above list? Or am I just weird to expect all of this under 25K USD?

Thanks in advance
-DOL

You are not weird at all. It's always good to expect a few things when you are buying a watch. 25K is no joke.

 

Interesting. This price range gives you the opportunity to explore models from LF. I believe they meet most of your criteria, and definitely succeed in size, movement design and finishing, however there are no arabic numerals.
The Galet square can be found for around $24k in various color combinations, but only in steel at this price. The finishing is superlative and I find the movement exquisite. The pictures below are taken from Monochrome watches.
What do you think? Maybe a few pointers on the design languages you like/dislike would help us.

 

Interesting. This price range gives you the opportunity to explore models from LF. I believe they meet most of your criteria, and definitely succeed in size, movement design and finishing, however there are no arabic numerals.
The Galet square can be found for around $24k in various color combinations, but only in steel at this price. The finishing is superlative and I find the movement exquisite. The pictures below are taken from Monochrome watches.
What do you think? Maybe a few pointers on the design languages you like/dislike would help us.

This one is right up my ally, in terms of finishing and design language. This is indeed one of the watches that I plan to inspect at close quarters (10X). It does look like it ticks most of the boxes - thank you. If that bridge that is holding the micro-rotor is curved and specular polished, that would the icing on the cake. Is there a difference in finishing of the movement when you chose a Steel vs a precious metal in LF ?

 

Oh, and actually, posting this made me think of another watch that is often overlooked but which is sensational and gives you A LOT of haute horlogerie for the price. The Monsieur de Chanel. If you think of Chanel as a fashion brand, forget what you know and take some time to dive into this fantastic piece. It exists in Rose Gold or white gold (and also in platinum with an enamel dial for like $63k), and can be had around $20-$24k, albeit pre-owned but in pristine condition.
I find the dial ultra legible, and the complications are very cleverly integrated. Incredible watch in my opinion, I imagine you will enjoy the construction of the movement that makes it a superb "show piece".

 

A couple of possible oddball options, though I only know about them online... I've never handled them:

Parmagiani Tonda 39 QF

Schwarz Etienne Roma

 

Go East. Asaoka (not sure where prices are for current orders though), Makihara and Nakagawa (closed case back but I’m sure you could talk about what might be done, again however I’m nit sure where pieces are for current orders).

I am surprised to see you mention Urwerk given the list you have outlined here also. They most definitely do not meet much of the criteria (this is not a slight on Urwerk, I am an owner and these are perhaps one of my favourite watches to wear). And you can most definitely have a 103 under your budget, prices are very weak recently.

 

Go East. Asaoka (not sure where prices are for current orders though), Makihara and Nakagawa (closed case back but I'm sure you could talk about what might be done, again however I'm nit sure where pieces are for current orders).

I am surprised to see you mention Urwerk given the list you have outlined here also. They most definitely do not meet much of the criteria (this is not a slight on Urwerk, I am an owner and these are perhaps one of my favourite watches to wear). And you can most definitely have a 103 under your budget, prices are very weak recently.

Thanks very much for the the pointers, I'll search. I'm also checking Qin Gan but not able to find any link or communication channels, pointers.

On the Urwerk, you are right, it practically has nothing in the list, but it is just so rad <desparately trying to pretend young>. I'll keep a very close eye on that, if an oppurtunity comes up, and I've just won a lottery/lotto, and if I havent not spent all of it on examples from P.Dufour, Groenefeld, KV etc, then I wouldn't shy from adding an 103.09 to the collection

 

Very nice list of asks, if a little unrealistic. I think only Parmigiani Fleurier and Urban Jurgensen (off the top of my head) have 5 interior angles at your price range, and you've already dismissed the Alfred. The Hebdomadaire is probably too large.

 

Interesting that you talk about PF, I did check the Hebdo and Squelette and you are right the Hebdo is rather large from my wrist but has a stunningly finished movement, dare I say way above the entry/mid level trinity, with plenty inerior angles and a 7/8 day power reserve. The jewel sinks on that movement is peerless, it is wide and specular polished, but alas the movement doesnt have a free sprung balance nor an overcoil. The amout flat specular polished surfaces is rather low as well.

The PF Squelette is a stunner when it comes to inerior angles, there are so many and ALL of them have been meticulously finished ! I just wish they had kept the dial-side simple. The readability on the Squellette is rather very low. it also lacks the beautiful wide jewel sinks like the Hebdo

 

I also love Ming

 

The 19.01 is gorgeous. Very impatiently awaiting my 27.10

 

USD25K got me an FPJ CB at retail from AD

a little bit less got me a PP5711 white dial at retail from AD. a little bit more got me an IWC MR from a grey.

cant find all we want in one watch. For me, usually there’s something, a feature that calls to me and makes me buy.

 

USD25K got me an FPJ CB at retail from AD

a little bit less got me a PP5711 white dial at retail from AD. a little bit more got me an IWC MR from a grey.

cant find all we want in one watch. For me, usually there's something, a feature that calls to me and makes me buy.

You seem to be a lucky man haha

 

Give Speake Marin a look.

Speake-Marin – Exclusive watches – Homepage

www.speake-marin.com

 

I'll take a re-look, thank you. The nakedwatchmaker's creations were indeed good, I need to take a relook.

 

I know you said no PP.... but the 6006G with the micro rotor is my latest obsession

 

if Micro rotor is your thing, check out PF 1950 series and Chopard L.U.C esp the ones with 96.1 movement

 

Man used Lange really sounds right up your alley. What didn't you like about them?

They are super legible, a Lange 1 used is like $15k - $18k and available in WG. Finishing even on "low end" Langes is just as good as their $$$ models.

 

Thank you. Yes legibility-wise, L&S are really up there. I had an interesting discussion with their tech and marketting folks in Dresden about the comparetively small balance wheels on their entry-mid level and lack of overcoils. Somehow they were not able to convince me. Very nice folks but their entry level movements don't match my expecations unfortunately (esp interior angles). The one that does, starts with the Datograph whose dial side is tad busy for my taste and a above my budget. As mentioned in my original post, AFAIK their movements are made of un-plated "German-silver" which gains a platina over time. The platina looks beautiful of course, but rather iffy to handle when servicing (disclaimer - I have not serviced a Lange, this is what I understand from reading from various sources on the net, feel free to correct me if this is wrong)

 

Have you looked at Lang & Hyne?

Finishing is spectacular, but different than the swiss. The diamond and hand engraving is a nice touch. This new Stainless example if 39.2mm from their USA AD @ $22,500

Easily fit a small wrist with the short lugs. The tradeoff is that you have to get Bespoke straps if you want more option ($250 range from a number of artisans)

They have a used 40mm Stainless steel model for $17800

Pictures taken from the AD: Lang & Heyne Watches

 

Have you looked at Lang & Hyne?

Finishing is spectacular, but different than the swiss. The diamond and hand engraving is a nice touch. This new Stainless example if 39.2mm from their USA AD @ $22,500

Easily fit a small wrist with the short lugs. The tradeoff is that you have to get Bespoke straps if you want more option ($250 range from a number of artisans)

They have a used 40mm Stainless steel model for $17800

Pictures taken from the AD: Lang & Heyne Watches

Yup, already in touch with them. right now my list consists of L&H, LF and tumble weed ☹ . I must admit though that the L&H movement side is tad too Golden for my taste, but I suppose I cant be too picky. OTOH, their dial side on the F-II and F-III have a very simple dials, not a fan of numbers on dials, so I'm checking with them if they have an option to just remove them. I'll keep this forum posted. I saw somewhere on the internet that someone even managed to get an enamel dial on the F-III -> NICE.

 

 

VC picture

Thank you very much for the beautiful picture, Entry level VCs and the partimony series seem to have token interior angles. Yes there are a few automatic models which have interior angles in their rotating weight, but it would be good to have them on the movememnt rather than just on the oscilating weight. Thank you again, please do note that, this is not a knock on VC, far from it; but for now, they dont seem to fit the criteria (including budget).

 

Moser has some nice easy to read offerings with gorgeous movements. Take a look at Jaquet Droz too.

 

Yup, Moser has one of the most beautiful dials out there, I'd LOVE to have their VantaBlack model in my collection, but their movements do not IMHO meet my criteria interms of interior angles and black/tin polish.

 

H.Moser or Laurent Ferrier, in-house movements under 25k incredible finishing and also very good designs

 

H.Moser or Laurent Ferrier, in-house movements under 25k incredible finishing and also very good designs

Yup, LF is on the shortlist, Moser - nope, doesnt meet the criteria of interior angles. Although I do have a few quibbles about LF, they use silicon components that are very likely very difficult to source by my local watchmaket. They also use funky screws to lock their case :-/ . Well... we cant have everything, can we

 

Another option I would suggest since you are dead set on the interior angles and their finishing is to reserve some of your budget for an additional finishing on the movement after you buy the piece.

Some watchmakers do that, and some small independent companies can also customize your order if you tell them ahead of time. For instance, I am currently working on something with Chronoswiss regarding the movement of my Sirius Artist, and hopefully I can share some more information in a few months. It should be epic...

Anyway, if you like Shapiro or Moser's designs, I suggest to contact them directly and explain what you'd like. They should tell you right away what they can or can't do.

All the best,
A.

 

Excellent point. That guilloche enamel dial on your Sirius definitely deserves whatever upgrades to the movement you're planning!

 

Lange, Vacheron & Breguet

In that exact order.

 

Thanks. As mentioned in the OP, the entry level Lange s AFAIK do not have polished internal angles; that starts from Datograph onwards. Most entry level Vacherons have one or two interior angles and slightly older ones have movements that are not commensurate with the case size. Breguet have one of the best dials out there, what with all those nicely engine tuned Guilloche or Fired Enamel dials. A few entry level Breguets do have a couple of polished internal angles though.

I'm sure SethThomas will be able to enlighten us on the finishing difference between his Breguet Tradition Vs Armin Strom Gravity esp when it comes to interior angles, sinks and black-polish

 

Now, if the size is really holding you back, AS just released a smaller 38mm by 11.5mm design. But they are marketing it to women. This will bother a lot of guys, but some would not care. I actually really like the case and reverse balance.

Armin Strom does a lot of custom bespoke work. They could change to a more masculine hand set. And possible more dial colors / indices or dial printing options. Also removing "Lady" inscription off the case back may be doable

 

Was there consideration given to the Sinn Meisterbund I WG? Has the UWD 33.1 movement by Marco Lange and quite beautiful.

 

I was thinking about this too (it's a very cool watch with 100 m WR), but the Shapiro was ruled out and it also uses a UWD movement. Other than the Laurent Ferrier, maybe a Gronefeld Principia? It doesn't have the quantity of interior angles, but is well finished.

 

Wow, I'm saving for an 'entry level' VC traditionelle (which on paper I cannot afford at all). Nevertheless, it is fascinating to learn what sort of detail you guys are looking for. I study ancient metalworking techniques, so have some appreciation of artisanship, and now I'm on the look out for 'interior angles'!