You cant go wrong with a sarb033... and you can get one for less than $350

 

I don't mind paying more for the Citizen if the movement is more accurate or superior. But yes, the smaller size of the Seiko is a plus for me.

I guess at the end of the day, what it really boils down to is Seiko 6R15C vs Miyota 9010.

 

Well... one thing to consider is also the size the sarb is in the small side

 

This may be an unpopular opinion but I haven't liked any of the Citizens I've handled recently compared to Seiko at the same price range.

 

The 9011 is a smoother movement

 

Citizen autos don’t get nearly as much consideration as they probably should around here...

 

With an automatic (or any mechanical) there's no way of knowing which is going to be more accurate simply on their faces. There's probably more variance between any two 6R15s or between any two 9011s as there is between a particular 6R15 and a particular 9011.

Despite all the benefits of mass production and even with stringent quality control, no two movements are going to perform identically. That makes any comparison between these two movements an exercise in mental masturbation.




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If accuracy & precision are your objectives (as they should be to any fellow WIS :-!), Seikos and MIyotas are not the best choices. Or even second best. Neither are particularly precise timekeepers, nor were they designed to be. With a $600 budget, you can do much, much better.

1) The lowest grade Swiss ETA 2824 has roughly twice the precision as anything from the 7S/4R/6R family, regardless of model, beat rate, cost, etc.
2) Higher grade 2824s and more "premium" movements like the 2892 (that starts at elabore grade) are in a different performance category altogether. The "base" 2892 has a 10 second allowable variance in its daily rate (+/- 5). The 6r15 has a 40 second variance (-15/+25). That's like comparing a 100HP engine to a 400 HP engine.
3) The Sellita (SW200) and Chinese Sea-gull (ST2130) clones of the ETA are also more precise than the Seiko 6R's, though the QC with the Chinese movements is spotty at times, and the few Sellitas I've tested have not done as well as the ETAs.
4) The STP1-11, which can be had in watches costing as little as $300, has even tighter specs than the standard grade 2824, and is adjusted in FIVE positions, vs. two for the standard grade ETA and none for the Seikos
5) If you really want to be thrifty, the Swatch sistem51 movement, rated at an outstanding +/- 7 sec/day, can be had for as little as $100. That's Seiko 5 money, mate. The new Tissot Swissmatic line also uses a modified version of the this revolutionary, but disposable, new movement.

Seiko makes great watches and has reliable, proven, workhorse movements. I own ten Seikos and love them all. My first was a Seiko 5 with the workhorse 7s26c that keeps decent but inconsistent time, and my most recent is a Grand Seiko 9S85 hi-beat that rivals the best Swiss chronometers. Seiko's high end fare is excellent, and their Spring Drive is the most precise mechanically powered (but quartz regulated) movement in the world, but their consumer grade movements are not competitive with the precision/accuracy of their Swiss peers, and most honest Seiko fans (myself included) will readily admit as much.

FYI, most Seiko mechanicals were designed for simplicity, durability, and ease of maintenance. They were not designed to be precise timekeepers, which requires manual adjustment for positional variance and other factors after the movement is produced. Most sold today are based on the entry-level, unadjusted 7S26 base movement, which can be had for $60. The 4R is just a 7S that hacks/winds. It is no more, and possibly less, accurate than the 7Sc. The 6R15 adds a spron spring for better power reserve and a modest gain in precision, but I've found it to be only marginally better than the 7S on which it's based. The 4Hz versions (like 6R21/27s) beat faster but are no more precise than the 6R15, in my experience, and the fact that Seiko rates them identically is telling. Like I said, great movements in their own right, but nowhere near as precise as similarly priced, or even cheaper Swiss offerings.

Finally, if you are absolutely adamant about staying Japanese, I'd take the MIyota 9-series over the Seiko 6R any day. It's widely known to be a much more precise movement in practice (in spite of official specs that are no better than Seiko 6R), in part because of its higher (4Hz) beat rate. I've even tested some 9-series that compete with the Swiss ETAs. The 9015 and its derivatives are very good movements for the money, and you don't have to spend anywhere near $600 to get one. Just ask around.

 

If accuracy & precision are your objectives (as they should be to any fellow WIS :-!), Seikos and MIyotas are not the best choices. Or even second best. Neither are particularly precise timekeepers, nor were they designed to be. With a $600 budget, you can do much, much better.

...

Finally, if you are absolutely adamant about staying Japanese, I'd take the MIyota 9-series over the Seiko 6R any day. It's widely known to be a much more precise movement in practice (in spite of official specs that are no better than Seiko 6R), in part because of its higher beat rate (4h). I've even tested some 9-series that compete with the Swiss ETAs. The 9015 and its derivatives are very good movements for the money, and you don't have to spend anywhere near $600 to get one. Just ask around.

Thank you, awesome post. I love my seikos and even my favorites have the 6R15 but that thing is wild compared to the swiss watches I've had!

 

Thanks very much for that insightful post, Purple Hayz - it is exactly the kind of advice I was looking for.

My personal experience with a relatively cheap $150 Seiko 5 with the 7S26 movement wasn't too good as far as accuracy was concerned - it usually ran about -20s/day, every day. If these newer 6R15C movements aren't much of an improvement, then I'd definitely take a closer look at the Swiss ETA offerings.

Regarding the Japanese, is it safe to say that Miyota offers the most precise Japanese movements under $1000? If this is true, then Miyota movements should be on watch enthusiasts' recommendation lists just as often as the budget Seiko movements - 7S/4R/6R.

 

Regarding the Japanese, is it safe to say that Miyota offers the most precise Japanese movements under $1000? If this is true, then Miyota movements should be on watch enthusiasts' recommendation lists just as often as the budget Seiko movements - 7S/4R/6R.

No, for the same reasons I posted above. You simply can't make that type of generalization about an off-the-shelf, mass produced movement.

To illustrate the point, let's consider the ETA 2824-2. ETA offer it in four grades: Standard, Elabore, Top, and Chronometer. What's critically important to understand is that ETA doesn't *manufacture* four grades of 2824-2, they just make 2824-2's. Once they're produced, they go back and adjust them and test them. The ones that fall within chronometer-spec after adjustment are deemed "Chronometer grade" and sold as such. Those that fall within ETA's specs for "Top" grade are given that designation and sold as such. This goes on down the line (what ETA does with movements that fall outside of the "Standard"-grade parameters, and can't be brought into spec, is anybody's guess). Not every 2824-2 that comes off the line is capable of making the cut for the higher grades.

So, why am I talking about Swiss ETA movements in a Seiko/Citizen thread? To show that ETA, who has been pumping out 2824's of some type for decades, still has tremendous variability from mass-produced movement to mass-produced movement. Seiko and Citizen's workhorse movements leave the factories unadjusted. There isn't a grading system. So you could buy two identical watches with sequential serial numbers and their performances could differ wildly. One could exhibit noticeable positional variance and the other could be dead-on consistent in every position. One could exhibit noticeable isochronism while the other remains steady as a rock.

I've got an SKX (7s26A) that gains 20spd, but it does so in every position and it does so irrespective of how wound the mainspring is. So it's fast, but has nearly zero positional variance or isochronism.

I have a Seiko 5 (7s26C) that, on the wrist (i.e., constantly wound and in regularly alternating positions), loses about 2.5spd. But when rested in any position it loses nearly 18spd. So, excellent timekeeping, no positional variance, but terrible isochronism.

I have another Seiko 5 (7s36C) that gains 3spd, irrespective of position or how wound the mainspring is. That's phenomenal performance in every category.

So, three movements from the same family, each exhibiting completely different traits. I don't have any watches with Miyota 90xx movements (though I'd very much like to) but given that they're ungraded, unadjusted movements I wouldn't expect the results to be any different (I've not recorded data for the Miyota 8xxx movements, but my experience with them was not dissimilar to that of the Seiko 7s watches above).

So, basically, all of that was just a lot of words to say that "while the Miyota 90xx movements are intriguing, it is not safe to say that a given Citizen auto will be more accurate or precise than a given Seiko auto under $1,000." Its luck of the draw either way.

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I have two Seiko autos, one 4r36 which is about 20 sec slow every day, and the other a 7s26 that is about 2 sec slow per day. The accurate one says Made in Japan , so maybe that has something to do with it

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Can’t really comment on the Citizen but it would have to be one heck of a watch to get me off the SARB team.

 

Big fan of the Miyota 9xxx series movements. Smooth, accurate, reliable, handwind able....great automatics.

Have a bunch of Seiko 7 and 4 movements and they are ok for the price.

The only Seiko I own that I like better than the Miyota is the 8L35.

Do have a Soprod A10, which is a Seiko design (4L25?), sold to the Swiss. Like it plenty as well.

 

The only Seiko I own that I like better than the Miyota is the 8L35.

Kinda like bringing a gun to a knife fight, my friend. It may not say GS on the rotor, but it's not fooling anyone ;-)

 

i'm no fan of the 7s, 6r1x or 4r - because of drift after adjustment.

the 6r2x can be made accurate with minimal to no drift after adjustment. and it's high(er) beat.

8L will cost more, but will not outperform the 6r2x's accuracy (IME from past/present ownership) when both are properly adjusted.

 

Purple Hayz, I'd like to see some of the 80 hour power reserve movements on that table (especially the Hamilton H-30/40) and compare with the regular ETA 2824 and 2892.

Also, based on your table, what is your assessment of the Sellita SW200-1? Would you say that it is less accurate than the ETA 2824-2?

 

See stats for the Tissot Powermatic caliber cO7.111, which is rebranded as the Hamilton h30. Basically a 2824 slowed to 3Hz and fitted with low friction composite (plastic) escapement components (e.g pallet fork) and a beefier spring, all of which combine for that stellar power reserve. As you can see, it keeps comparable time to its ETA siblings.

The Sellita was a bit disappointing to say the least. They had some early teething problems (literally), but are now supposed to be comparable to the ETA movements they clone. Though the one I tested was brand new, had little to no beat error, and ran well within specs, it was notably less precise than every ETA in the sample. I will likely pick up another at some point to confirm, but for now it's hard to recommend the Sellita vs. the ETA.

 

While I may not have the resources of those above, I can say this:

My most accurate MECHANICAL watches are as follows:
- Invicta 8926 - powered by a Miyota 8215 - 0 to +2 second a day.
- Invicta 8928 - powered by an NH35 movement (essentially a 4R35) - 5 or so seconds a day
- Seiko 5 SNKK25 -powered by a 7S26 - + 2-3 seconds a day
- Fossil Automatic CH1897 - 10 seconds a day

So far these are just what I've observed during wearing. I don't have a time-grapher or any fancy equipment....just recorded time against an atomic clock (on the internet) every morning and evening for the duration of wearing.

I suspect I may have gotten lucky....but the point is that accuracy might very well vary.

 

There's nothing wrong with using an atomic clock on the internet to check accuracy - time.is is a great site for that.

You can also use a smartphone app, which I find to be more convenient as you can compare all watches in your collection side by side. I use WatchCheck.

 

If you're looking for accurate mechanical from Seiko in my experience the 6R15 hasn't been too friendly to me. I've had much better luck with the 4R35/36 and the 7S26.

 

Depends on your luck and if you put in the effort to have it adjusted,

I have a 4R36 Stargate II that when worn regularly runs at +1 seconds a day,

And every review i´ve seen of the sistem51 has been a distaster, its rated at 7 seconds a day but it can go as far as 30 seconds a day, its designed as a disposable movement that uses silver solder to hold it togather, the lowest "acceptable" level movement from swiss manufacturers would be the 2824,

And movements like the Sistem51 or the C01,211 have shown a worrying drop in quality regarding to components,

Also the 4/6/8R family is a movement thats designed to be rugged over accuracy, but when properly adjusted can operate just as well or better then their swiss counterparts, I guess thats what puts Swiss watchmaking above japanese, the little details.

But regarding quality and reliability, i suggest you do a ebay search for vintage seikos and compare that to vintage swiss movements...

 

I would be impressed if a mid level Swiss brand made their own movement line, from scratch, the way Seiko has and had that movement reliably outperform a Seiko 6r series while keeping an affordable price. There is a different cost /distribution structure involved when you're buying ETA movements off the shelf for a certain price and sticking them in your watches, versus building a movement from the ground up for use in affordable watches. Because of that key difference, I don't really think it's apples to apples.

I'd be interested in you collecting data on the 28kbph 6r2x series of movements used in some of the Presage models, as well as the discontinued 4s15, 4s25, and 4s35. I suspect the latter would be a serious contender, especially considering the lineage.

 

I'd be interested in you collecting data on the 28kbph 6r2x series of movements used in some of the Presage models, as well as the discontinued 4s15, 4s25, and 4s35. I suspect the latter would be a serious contender, especially considering the lineage.

Say a little more, mate. I thought I'd exhausted the contemporary Seiko movements, but I'm always interested in expanding the sample. My goal is to eventually have examples of nearly every mainstream movement a WIS might be interested in buying, so that they'll know what to expect before making a purchase.

As you can see in the spreadsheet I put in post #14 above, I have the following Seikos in the database already:

7s26c (x3)
4R35
6R15 (x2)
6R27 (x2)
9S85 (Grand Seiko hi-beat)

I also have a couple Orients (technically independent but still owned by Seiko, and I believe their movements are base off an older Seiko design) and a brilliant 4500 series vintage King Seiko that forum member will_f contributed.

Tell me about these 4S movements? Are they still made? Where can I get one? Do you have any in the stable?

 

Just wanted to say great thread, all! I’ve learned a ton.


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good read, thanks!