I think where a watch is made should be made available to potential customers for transparency.

 

Let's take a hypothetical example:

• Steel is sourced and refined in India
• Suppliers buy the metal and make individual components of the movement in China
• It is purchased by a Swiss company that then assembles it and adds a few Swiss-made component that cannot be manufactured elsewhere
• That company then sells the entire finished movement to a watchmaker

Does the watchmaker call this movement Swiss or Chinese?

From the watchmakers perspective, the movement was sources from a Swiss company - does that make it Swiss?

From the movement maker's perspective - the parts were sourced from outside the country but the main mechanism itself was made in Switzerland, with a few parts sourced locally. So is it Swiss or not?

How far back the chain do you go?

 

Been looking at Timefactors and a few other brands that are clearly made in China, but with no mention of China and instead a 'Great Britain' at the bottom of the dial:

In fact no where on their website is China mentioned. Doesn't this break some sort of law?

There are certain restrictions around certain words. "Swiss Made" requires a specific percentage of parts and construction to be done in Switzerland. It's nowhere close to 100%. Seiko puts "Japan" on its watches that have cases made in China.

There might be some sort of restriction on "Made in GB or England" but you can just put GB on there. That's not going to run afoul of anything. It doesn't mean anything.

 

There are certain restrictions around certain words. "Swiss Made" requires a specific percentage of parts and construction to be done in Switzerland. It's nowhere close to 100%. Seiko puts "Japan" on its watches that have cases made in China.

There might be some sort of restriction on "Made in GB or England" but you can just put GB on there. That's not going to run afoul of anything. It doesn't mean anything.

Honourable. What about the owner and official website not mentioning the word China anywhere?

 

Been looking at Timefactors and a few other brands that are clearly made in China, but with no mention of China and instead a 'Great Britain' at the bottom of the dial:

In fact no where on their website is China mentioned. Doesn't this break some sort of law?

NTH watches are also made in China.

From the NTH website: Where and how are your watches made?


We make watches the same way all other brands make them. We primarily use Swiss or Japanese movements and other components made globally, and outsource final assembly.

We do not share our vendors' names, or divulge information which is proprietary to our business.

 

I would settle for place of “assembly.” I always assume parts are from all over, would just be nice to know where they are put together. Consumers appreciate more vs less information.

 

I like the Swiss made model meaning its assembled there, it was tested by the manufacturer in Switzerland and at least 60% of production costs were generated in Switzerland, you know exactly what you are getting

 

Consumers should have the right to know what country the product is made in anything else is deceit and I would not buy from a brand that has those values

 

You absolutely do NOT have a right to know. In fact, you have zero rights in determining what info the manufacturer chooses to reveal*. However, you do have a right to not buy a product that doesnt disclose this information - that's absolutely your choice.

(*Leaving aside whatever is mandated by the local laws, obviously)

 

I'd guess Omega and Rolex also use parts made in China.

 

This is true to some extent for Omega but not for Rolex all parts are now produced in house with the exception of the cyclops, Rolex is a company that cares a lot more than people think

 

I'm not sure why this matters?

 

Transparency is important in business.

 

Ask Eddie where they are made.

 

There's a definite stigma to Chinese watches, even though the quality of production ranges from $5 watches up to very high quality ones manufactured for mainstream brands.

I can see why people might be sensitive about buying Chinese products given the Chinese government's reprehensible human rights position, but if you (not YOU, one) wear an Apple Watch or have an iPod, iPhone or iPad, you really don't care that much.

Most of the world's stuff is made in China.

To be fair to Timefactors, Eddie makes no secret on his forum that watches are now made in China. Indeed he explains a huge amount about the development and production of watches that most manufacturers wouldn't dream of revealing.

The last few days, I was wearing a Smiths Caribbean, which I presume was made in China and the quality is outstanding.

It is a form of deception.
...
Timefactors is particularly galling because putting "Great Britain" on a dial made in China is one step removed from putting "Rolex" on the dial of a Submariner homage. It's a "fake" British watch, so to speak.

Mmmm - I think I'd disagree about 3000% with that statement.

Eddie designs his watches, he's in the UK, he takes a huge amount of input from the forum, most of those people are in the UK (not all, of course),

It doesn't claim to be made in the UK, so how are they pretending it is? It says 'Great Britain' and it's very clearly a British designed watch, manufactured for a British company, that sells from the UK.

If you're right and it's one step removed from putting Rolex on the dial, you've got incredibly long legs!

M

 

I agree with where it’s assembled. Parts can come from all over the world. That’s fine. However, a watch is not assembled in multiple countries as best as I know. There’s a simple rule in manufacturing, if your proud of it you share the pride. When you want to hide something you share little

 

I think there should be transparency where the watch was made. I also think China can make better watches and space stations than most watch making nations. It's probably a fine watch.

 

Been looking at Timefactors and a few other brands that are clearly made in China, but with no mention of China and instead a 'Great Britain' at the bottom of the dial:

. . .

In fact no where on their website is China mentioned. Doesn't this break some sort of law?

Whether it breaks "some sort of law" depends on the country you're in (or where the watch is sold). Every country (or trading block as in the EU) has different rules for determining country of origin for imported products, & often completely different rules for labeling of domestic products. For example, in the U.S., the rule for labeling something "Made in USA" or "Made in America" is much, much stricter than the rules for an imported Japanese watch to be labeled "Made in Japan" or just "Japan", even if it has Chinese parts. So a watch made in the U.S. w/an American-made case, dial, hands, etc., but using a Japanese movement can't be labeled "Made in USA" inside the U.S.; however, the same watch could conceivably be exported to Japan & labeled "Made in USA" in accordance w/Japanese law (in fact, if it was made by a Japanese company in the U.S. under Japanese supervision & quality control, it might easily be marked "Made in Japan").

I'm all for more transparency, but the fact remains that there is no commonly-agreed, international standard for country of origin labeling.

 

You may be more well versed in this topic but I am sure this was a requirement by the World Trade Organisation that country of origin was a requirement.

As for your post about the strict rules of Made in USA or Made in America, then what about Ginault's Hand Built in America? We all know they use parts from China. In fact, pretty sure every part comes from China....

 

It is a form of deception.
Everybody knows that "Swiss Made" is a mark of quality, for example. Manufacturers want to present that mark of quality while simultaneously cutting costs through manufacturing in cheaper nations. If this weren't the case, why doesn't any microbrand want to put "Made in China" at the bottom of the dial? We all know why.

Timefactors is particularly galling because putting "Great Britain" on a dial made in China is one step removed from putting "Rolex" on the dial of a Submariner homage. It's a "fake" British watch, so to speak. A Chinese homage to British watches? Then there are those that put nonsense like "Assembled in the USA" in their marketing schemes in an attempt to fool people into conflating assembly with source of manufacture. Let's not get into Seiko, which can put "Made in Japan" on a watch cased in Thailand. All these examples contain lesser or greater degrees of deception. They want the reputation without paying the cost required to earn it.

I get that it's difficult in this globalised world to truly say something is made in Country X or Country Y, but we all know that many watch makers are holding themselves out to be anything other than manufacturers that are making most of their product through manufacturers in China. The horror.

 

It is a form of deception.
Everybody knows that "Swiss Made" is a mark of quality, for example. Manufacturers want to present that mark of quality while simultaneously cutting costs through manufacturing in cheaper nations. If this weren't the case, why doesn't any microbrand want to put "Made in China" at the bottom of the dial? We all know why.

Arguable. Everybody knows that "Swiss Made" is marketable. Those of us who have been around knows Swiss made can be a loose term, and thus I would hardly consider Swiss Made to be a mark of quality anymore.

 

Absolutely, manufacturers should be clear about the provenance of the watch.

Many, perhaps even most, sub $1,500 watches labeled “Swiss Made” are mostly Chinese components, but with an inexpensive Swiss movement and assembled in Switzerland.

 

How do you categorize a watch that's made in multiple countries, through various state of assembly from parts to completion?

Made on Earth?

 

Most microbrand watches don't have China mentioned on them even though that is where nearly all of them come from. China has become the world's factory for most consumer items.

 

Unless said otherwise, I assume assembled in China.

 

I guess I don’t care, only because I don’t believe there’s any way to know, particularly for watches in my price range (all under $4K so far).

 

"Clearly made in China"


Please explain what is "clearly" Chinese about Timefactors offerings.

 

I guess what is "clearly made in China" about Timefactor's watches is that they are made in China like most microbrands. The owner Eddie admitted when pressed.

TimeFactors watches - Where is it made? 2018 status!

I happened to read a discussion thread wondering about where the "TimeFactors watches by Eddie Plats been made ". Actually I contacted Mr. Eddie Plats himself via email and he was a great guy, When I enquired about where the watches are manufactured, he gave me a very honest and precise answer...

www.watchuseek.com

However the first hint I got that China was involved was reading the reviews like these:

Time Factors is rated "Average" with 3.6 / 5 on Trustpilot

Do you agree with Time Factors's TrustScore? Voice your opinion today and hear what 18 customers have already said.

uk.trustpilot.com

I am sorry you got emotional. That was not my intent. Can I get you anything?

 

It’s one reason I don’t generally buy micro brands .

 

Do not care as long as the quality, durability, and accuracy meet my expectations.

 

Adjectives synonymous with Chinese manufacturers.

 

I guess a lack of information plays a lot here. In the case of Seiko, I remember their watches told you 2 things, where the movement came from and where it was assembled. “Japan Mvt” for the former and “Made in Japan” for the later. The “Japan Mvt” watches were cased in China or Philippines

 

I am old enough to remember when Made in Japan meant cheap and lower quality.

If I like the watch I'll buy it. My Seiko's were likely assembled in Malaysia Japanese Movements. My microbrand watch (Islander) was likely assembled in China and it has a Japanese made movement (Miyota 9015)

 

I am old enough to remember when Made in Japan meant cheap and lower quality.

Or when that later became 'Made in Taiwan', and 'Made in Korea'

 

Looks like they're made in Hong Kong? TimeFactors watches - Where is it made? 2018 status!

I believe all products sold in the US are required to state country of origin. Not sure about the UK. Is it possible Timefactors does the final assembly of the watches in the UK and hence the "Great Britain" designation?

 

I think there’s some loopholes. The dials say “Great Britain”, not “Made in GB”. And with the US, It’s been a while but imports to certain states dictate you have to declare the country of origin which a lot of manufacturers put as their head office, not where the individual parts are manufactured.

 

I wouldn't post this on the omega forum, they are 101% Swiss Made

by Heidi's grand grand papa

 

I like what Fears does. This is verbatim from their website, under specs. And I think their watch deserves a pic, just because it’s so gorgeous! 😬

Case	316L Stainless Steel. Polished & Spun (brushed) finished. Screw down bezel & case back. Polished 'onion' shape crown. Solid case back. 316L Stainless Steel. Spun (brushed) with polished rim. Engraved with Edition Number. 38mm x 38mm, 42mm lug-to-lug, 20mm lug width (depth 11.25mm to top of domed sapphire glass). Made in Germany
Movement	Top-grade ETA 7001 manual winding mechanical, finished with Côtes de Genève. Made in Switzerland Finishing in UK
Dial	Dial size: 30mm / 1.18 inch Royal Purple. Purple lacquered colour. Sunburst brushing to surface, with sunken subsidiary seconds counter at 6 o’clock. CNC milled and diamond polished ‘Edwin’ Arabic numerals, coated in Rhodium and hand applied. Made in Germany
Hands	Milled, diamond polished and coated in Rhodium. Made in Germany
Glass	Sapphire Crystal front with ARdur® anti-reflective coating (inside & outside). Made in Hong Kong Coated in Switzerland
Functions	Hours, Minutes with subsidiary seconds at 6 o'clock.
Water Resistance	50m (5ATM)
Strap	Royal Purple in Bristol made calf leather, lined in Alcantara®, handmade. Leather made in UK Strap made in Belgium -and- Pewter Grey in Barenia calf leather, lined in Alcantara®, handmade. Leather made in France Strap made in Belgium

 

I like what Fears does. This is verbatim from their website, under specs. And I think their watch deserves a pic, just because it’s so gorgeous! 😬
View attachment 17239840

Case	316L Stainless Steel. Polished & Spun (brushed) finished. Screw down bezel & case back. Polished 'onion' shape crown. Solid case back. 316L Stainless Steel. Spun (brushed) with polished rim. Engraved with Edition Number. 38mm x 38mm, 42mm lug-to-lug, 20mm lug width (depth 11.25mm to top of domed sapphire glass). Made in Germany
Movement	Top-grade ETA 7001 manual winding mechanical, finished with Côtes de Genève. Made in Switzerland Finishing in UK
Dial	Dial size: 30mm / 1.18 inch Royal Purple. Purple lacquered colour. Sunburst brushing to surface, with sunken subsidiary seconds counter at 6 o’clock. CNC milled and diamond polished ‘Edwin’ Arabic numerals, coated in Rhodium and hand applied. Made in Germany
Hands	Milled, diamond polished and coated in Rhodium. Made in Germany
Glass	Sapphire Crystal front with ARdur® anti-reflective coating (inside & outside). Made in Hong Kong Coated in Switzerland
Functions	Hours, Minutes with subsidiary seconds at 6 o'clock.
Water Resistance	50m (5ATM)
Strap	Royal Purple in Bristol made calf leather, lined in Alcantara®, handmade. Leather made in UK Strap made in Belgium -and- Pewter Grey in Barenia calf leather, lined in Alcantara®, handmade. Leather made in France Strap made in Belgium

I like having this...it is a lot of info, but not saying it would sway me for purchase decisions, but watch nerds like details.

 

In terms of legal requirements, the manufacturers are not required to indicate country of origin on the product; as long as it's indicated somewhere, it meets these requirements; this is typically on the outer packaging.