Whens hopping for Seiko's online I keep seeing J1 and K1 in the model number: SNZH55J1 for example. The model is just SNZH55 so what does J1 indicate?
jlhabecker
It means about $50 extra dollars to some collectors. 
I think it designates either where it's made, or the market it's intended for (or both). J means Japan, K means not Japan (Malaysia?). There are lots of debates about whether or not there are real, tangible differences, but some people will pay extra for a J.
I think it designates either where it's made, or the market it's intended for (or both). J means Japan, K means not Japan (Malaysia?). There are lots of debates about whether or not there are real, tangible differences, but some people will pay extra for a J.
It's so funny, I see SKX J versions go for more second hand than the K versions cost new. It's actually mental.It means about $50 extra dollars to some collectors.
I think it designates either where it's made, or the market it's intended for (or both). J means Japan, K means not Japan (Malaysia?). There are lots of debates about whether or not there are real, tangible differences, but some people will pay extra for a J.
I wouldn't pay extra for one over the other, but the market can be pretty cool as it sometimes means a cool second language on the day wheel. I bought a SNZH53 off of Amazon (via a third party) and it came with an Arabic day wheel. The vintage chronos I get often have a Kanji day wheel. I always set them to the non-English setting. It makes me feel intercontinental, sort of like eating French toast or English muffins.
I nearly spit out my vodka/seltzer, funny.The vintage chronos I get often have a Kanji day wheel. I always set them to the non-English setting. It makes me feel intercontinental, sort of like eating French toast or English muffins.
Here's the way J and K works.
K is a well made watch at a reasonable price.
J is a well made watch at a reasonable price, AND then a premium, because the letter J is more valuable than the letter K (check with Sesame Street, Letter of the Day Division).
They mean "these products are for rest of the world". Here's why:
- Fact 1: JDM models NEVER have any designations
- Fact 2: Models sold by Seiko USA NEVER have any designations
- Based on above two facts, logical conclusion is: models with designations are for rest of the world(which practically means the entire world minus USA and Japan)
Bonus:
In some place such as eastern Asia, there is a very old and well-known rumor says Japanese makers are so sneaky that they always keep the top-grade products for themselves and the Yankees.
How about that?
- Fact 1: JDM models NEVER have any designations
- Fact 2: Models sold by Seiko USA NEVER have any designations
- Based on above two facts, logical conclusion is: models with designations are for rest of the world(which practically means the entire world minus USA and Japan)
Bonus:
In some place such as eastern Asia, there is a very old and well-known rumor says Japanese makers are so sneaky that they always keep the top-grade products for themselves and the Yankees.
How about that?
This is really refreshing to see a thread about this topic making a joke of it. This topic usually sparks a "Made in Japan" circle jerk.
Googled this,
About a year ago I became interested in purchasing my first really high end diving watch and began researching many of the better known brands. That lead me to look into the construction of the Spring Drive movement a few months later, and I sent some detailed questions to Seiko, not really expecting to hear back. But, low and behold, a few days later, a female engineer who works for Seiko named Keiko Matsumoto sent me some replies and we kind of struck up a correspondence. (we are both university trained engineers and we both spent some of our education at Tokyo University) In the past seven months or so, I have occasionally received valuable insight from her about not only Seiko products but also watchmaking and their industrial manufacture in general. Because of a thread asking about the SKX007 J and K versions a few days back, I decided to email her to get the low down. She said she could not comment but directed me to a Seiko executive who she said might be helpful. I emailed the guy and this is what he sent back (although, he asked not to be named):
".....due to the nature of customs and labor laws in Japan, products are generally allowed to be stamped with Made in Japan if they are produced outside the national boundaries as long as they are manufactured in a wholly owned Japanese firm where the work is overseen by Japanese nationals. Generally speaking, watches priced below about 90000 yen (currently $838 US dollars) do not contain enough profit margin to be made in Japan. This is not just for Seiko, but for all major Japanese manufacturers. Watches priced roughly from 90000 to 250000 yen (currently $838 to 2328 US dollars) are often finished or with final assembly done in Japan and higher end watches above this point are often fully assembled in Japan. ....."
He then went on to talk about a few other sales points, but then he included a 2013 list for me of where well known Seiko divers are made. Here is the list by price range:
(RP - Raw Parts, MIM= Made in Malaysia, MIC = Made in China, MIJ = Made in Japan, RA = Robot Assembly, HA = Hybrid Assembly (robot and human), HuA - Human Assembly)
Generally Seiko divers and many other models less than about $175 dollars are made of raw parts from China, with assembly done by robots in Malaysia and are overseen by Malaysian technicians.
SKX007 K = Raw Parts made mainly in China, MIM, RA, Oversight from Malaysian Technicians
SKX007 J = Raw Parts made mainly in China, MIM, RA, Oversight from Japanese Technicians (which allows the J version to be labeled as Made in Japan)
SBDC001 (Sumo) -almost all Sumo versions - Raw Parts made mainly in China, MIM, RA, Oversight from Japanese Technicians on assembly line
SNM031, 033, etc... (Samurai) - Raw Parts mainly from China, MIM, RA, Oversight from Japanese Technicians
SBDC007 (Shogun) - Raw Parts from mainly China, Titanium case machined and finished in Malaysia, MIM, HA, with final oversight done in Japan by human hands
MarineMaster
SBDX001 (MarineMaster 300m) - Raw Parts mainly from Japan and Malaysia, MIM, RA with final oversight by Japanese technicians in Japan (bet this will surprise many as the 8L35 in this watch is robot assembled)
SBDB001 (MarineMaster 600m Titanium) - Spring Drive made in Japan, MIJ, HuA with all assembly overseen by Japanese technicians in Japan
MarineMaster Tuna
SBBN017 - Quartz movement made in Malaysia, MIM, HA with final inspection by Japanese technicians
SBBN015 - Same as SBBN017
SBBN013 - Quartz movement made in Malaysia, MIJ, HuA with all assembly done by Japanese technicians in Japan
(The list also mentions a few other quartz 1000m resistant models. These models all seem to be fully made in Japan by human hands)
SBDX011 - Raw Parts from Japan and Malaysia, MIM, HA with final oversight by Japanese technicians in Japan
SBDB009 - Raw Parts from Japan and Malaysia, Spring Drive made in Japan, MIJ, HuA with all assembly overseen by Japanese technicians in Japan
Grand Seiko
Almost all the Grand Seikos are made from Japanese or Malaysia parts, although some of the quartz movements are made in Malaysia. They are all assembled in Japan by Japanese technicians. Most are hand assembled. The models which receive the most attention are the Hi-Beat models and next are the Spring Drive models.
And the funny thing was, after I received this juicy tidbit, I got another email a few hours later, saying "The previous listing is from production records in the past and does not reflect current Seiko manufacturing standards". The executive even apologized for sending me incorrect information and when I asked him for updated info, he said that he probably could not comment. And I have not heard back since then.
Maybe his accidental release of "old records" will help solve a few WUS Seiko questions. You decide.
About a year ago I became interested in purchasing my first really high end diving watch and began researching many of the better known brands. That lead me to look into the construction of the Spring Drive movement a few months later, and I sent some detailed questions to Seiko, not really expecting to hear back. But, low and behold, a few days later, a female engineer who works for Seiko named Keiko Matsumoto sent me some replies and we kind of struck up a correspondence. (we are both university trained engineers and we both spent some of our education at Tokyo University) In the past seven months or so, I have occasionally received valuable insight from her about not only Seiko products but also watchmaking and their industrial manufacture in general. Because of a thread asking about the SKX007 J and K versions a few days back, I decided to email her to get the low down. She said she could not comment but directed me to a Seiko executive who she said might be helpful. I emailed the guy and this is what he sent back (although, he asked not to be named):
".....due to the nature of customs and labor laws in Japan, products are generally allowed to be stamped with Made in Japan if they are produced outside the national boundaries as long as they are manufactured in a wholly owned Japanese firm where the work is overseen by Japanese nationals. Generally speaking, watches priced below about 90000 yen (currently $838 US dollars) do not contain enough profit margin to be made in Japan. This is not just for Seiko, but for all major Japanese manufacturers. Watches priced roughly from 90000 to 250000 yen (currently $838 to 2328 US dollars) are often finished or with final assembly done in Japan and higher end watches above this point are often fully assembled in Japan. ....."
He then went on to talk about a few other sales points, but then he included a 2013 list for me of where well known Seiko divers are made. Here is the list by price range:
(RP - Raw Parts, MIM= Made in Malaysia, MIC = Made in China, MIJ = Made in Japan, RA = Robot Assembly, HA = Hybrid Assembly (robot and human), HuA - Human Assembly)
Generally Seiko divers and many other models less than about $175 dollars are made of raw parts from China, with assembly done by robots in Malaysia and are overseen by Malaysian technicians.
SKX007 K = Raw Parts made mainly in China, MIM, RA, Oversight from Malaysian Technicians
SKX007 J = Raw Parts made mainly in China, MIM, RA, Oversight from Japanese Technicians (which allows the J version to be labeled as Made in Japan)
SBDC001 (Sumo) -almost all Sumo versions - Raw Parts made mainly in China, MIM, RA, Oversight from Japanese Technicians on assembly line
SNM031, 033, etc... (Samurai) - Raw Parts mainly from China, MIM, RA, Oversight from Japanese Technicians
SBDC007 (Shogun) - Raw Parts from mainly China, Titanium case machined and finished in Malaysia, MIM, HA, with final oversight done in Japan by human hands
MarineMaster
SBDX001 (MarineMaster 300m) - Raw Parts mainly from Japan and Malaysia, MIM, RA with final oversight by Japanese technicians in Japan (bet this will surprise many as the 8L35 in this watch is robot assembled)
SBDB001 (MarineMaster 600m Titanium) - Spring Drive made in Japan, MIJ, HuA with all assembly overseen by Japanese technicians in Japan
MarineMaster Tuna
SBBN017 - Quartz movement made in Malaysia, MIM, HA with final inspection by Japanese technicians
SBBN015 - Same as SBBN017
SBBN013 - Quartz movement made in Malaysia, MIJ, HuA with all assembly done by Japanese technicians in Japan
(The list also mentions a few other quartz 1000m resistant models. These models all seem to be fully made in Japan by human hands)
SBDX011 - Raw Parts from Japan and Malaysia, MIM, HA with final oversight by Japanese technicians in Japan
SBDB009 - Raw Parts from Japan and Malaysia, Spring Drive made in Japan, MIJ, HuA with all assembly overseen by Japanese technicians in Japan
Grand Seiko
Almost all the Grand Seikos are made from Japanese or Malaysia parts, although some of the quartz movements are made in Malaysia. They are all assembled in Japan by Japanese technicians. Most are hand assembled. The models which receive the most attention are the Hi-Beat models and next are the Spring Drive models.
And the funny thing was, after I received this juicy tidbit, I got another email a few hours later, saying "The previous listing is from production records in the past and does not reflect current Seiko manufacturing standards". The executive even apologized for sending me incorrect information and when I asked him for updated info, he said that he probably could not comment. And I have not heard back since then.
Maybe his accidental release of "old records" will help solve a few WUS Seiko questions. You decide.
So from the start J models are more expensive than K, so what possibly could be the reason?
I would be willing to be that Seiko discovered (to their pride and amusement I'm sure) that their customers were willing to pay a premium for a watch marked as J (which may originally only had been a market distribution designation), but like any capitalistic endeavor, mo' money mo' money. So while individual sellers may charge a premium because the watch they are selling is the coveted, unicorn analogue *J* (and rightfully so since a seller can ask any price they want), ultimately it is the buyer's fault (primary or secondary) who have fallen for the whole idea that 'J is the better version'. I think it's horological musical chairs, when the music stops, somebody (somebodies?) are stuck with a watch they overpaid for because J.
I think enough has been written out there about the whole J v K thing that it's now conventional wisdom - widely believed but all or mostly false or incorrect. Here is a thought though, anyone remember when "Made in Japan" was a euphimism for shoddy, crappy workmanship, material and products? In the not too distant future people will be arguing whether the 'Made in China' tag is really worth the extra money paid for it, and people will scoff at those old crappy Japanese watches and wonder whatever was the fuss. Or not.
I would be willing to be that Seiko discovered (to their pride and amusement I'm sure) that their customers were willing to pay a premium for a watch marked as J (which may originally only had been a market distribution designation), but like any capitalistic endeavor, mo' money mo' money. So while individual sellers may charge a premium because the watch they are selling is the coveted, unicorn analogue *J* (and rightfully so since a seller can ask any price they want), ultimately it is the buyer's fault (primary or secondary) who have fallen for the whole idea that 'J is the better version'. I think it's horological musical chairs, when the music stops, somebody (somebodies?) are stuck with a watch they overpaid for because J.
I think enough has been written out there about the whole J v K thing that it's now conventional wisdom - widely believed but all or mostly false or incorrect. Here is a thought though, anyone remember when "Made in Japan" was a euphimism for shoddy, crappy workmanship, material and products? In the not too distant future people will be arguing whether the 'Made in China' tag is really worth the extra money paid for it, and people will scoff at those old crappy Japanese watches and wonder whatever was the fuss. Or not.
I still get a kick listening to people argue that the J is Made in Japan 'because the dial says so'.
LOL [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
Instagram - Dec1968watches
LOL [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
Instagram - Dec1968watches
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