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Who copied who, is Rolex actually a homage?

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42K views 119 replies 39 participants last post by  JMILLER90  
#1 · (Edited)
Not such a silly question, from what I have read Rolex started making dive watches in 1954, and the Blancpain 50 fathoms came out in 1953. However Squale were making dive watches in 1950 before them both, I dont know if anyone made dive watches before that, but what is sure is Rolex was in catch up and to some extent making a homage!! Interesting when the affordable, so called homage divers get so much abuse from some..
An interesting topic I think, I would love to here comments and any pics of these early dive watches would be amazing.
Chris
 
#4 ·
Then they are both wrong, Squale for sure beat them both, (Blancpain and Rolex), being made earlier and in the classic diving style, too. I wonder what other companies produced dive watches of the classic diver style before 1953? From what I read Panerais was almost for sure the first real diver unless anyone else knows of another that came before?
Chris
 
#3 ·
In short, Rolex created the first waterproof case, forcing Omega to think of a way to come up with their own design, which led to the ‘case on case’ patent, hence, creating the first dive watch in the technical sense.

Panerai did not believe the Omega to be good enough for the Italian Navy, and so, decided to strike a partnership with Rolex, resulting in the first military dive watch.

Blancpain, having observed all of the above, set about improving the original incarnations and came out with the first modern dive watch.

No one company deserves more credit than the other. They were all great watchmakers who were working collectively (though unknowingly) to create that one watch that could go as deep as possible.


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#5 ·
Cary5500 said:
In short, Rolex created the first waterproof case, forcing Omega to think of a way to come up with their own design, which led to the 'case on case' patent, hence, creating the first dive watch in the technical sense.

Panerai did not believe the Omega to be good enough for the Italian Navy, and so, decided to strike a partnership with Rolex, resulting in the first military dive watch.

Blancpain, having observed all of the above, set about improving the original incarnations and came out with the first modern dive watch.

No one company deserves more credit than the other. They were all great watchmakers who were working collectively (though unknowingly) to create that one watch that could go as deep as possible.

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That cant be true as Squale produced a dive watch before Blancpain. Blancpain's diver came out in 1953, Squale's was in 1950.
Chris
 
#7 ·
It is a genuine question, sorry if it has been covered before. I read about the Rolex Blancpain thing and googled Squale and read this http://www.squale.ch/squale/chi_siamo.php?lingua=l2 And this Squale Swiss Made Professional Dive Watches | Island Watch
I knew squale went way back which is why I checked this brand. Also at the time many brands started producing very similar looking dive watches, and in the 60's there was an explosion of them many looking the same. In the 60's companies like Vostok made the Amphibia, new technology case wise, but very similar to other designs in looks. Looking at where it all started ie commercial dive watches and the development of the design over the years I would argue that watches similar to Rolex are homages to that brand. How it all happened they are all copies of each other to some degree IMO and the new so called homage brands are making very classic dive watches. Squale, Vostok, Omega all look very similar, but they are never called homages. I have an Amphibian on my desk that looks very like a Rolex. I also have a Squale 2002, which looks different, but they were making watches that were very similar to the Rolex too.
Chris
 
#10 · (Edited)
Rolex produced the turn o graph in 1953. BP had a patient for the FF in 1952 but not a production dive watch that was mass produced. 1937 Rolex made a prototype Zerograph that featured a rotating bezel but only 12 were made. So , yes no clear answer but most consider Rolex and BP to be the innovators of the modern dive watch with a rotating bezel. Rolex supplied the watches to Panerai for the military divers in 1930. So Rolex was actually making dive watches in 1936.

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#15 ·
Thrax said:
The nerd rage is gonna be tremendous on this one.

/popcorn
Click to expand...
agreed, now I'll be following this thread for a while and see what else others have to say.
 
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#13 ·
Have read some interesting stuff online but not sure what's true and what isn't.
Rolex watches were first to make the screw down crown and had a patent which meant no one else could use it.
blancpain were first to put rotating bezel on outside of watch commercially and it was patented as unidirectional so all early Rolex models right up to the late 70's or early 80s were bidirectional.


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#19 ·
Michael Day said:
Have read some interesting stuff online but not sure what's true and what isn't.
Rolex watches were first to make the screw down crown and had a patent which meant no one else could use it.
blancpain were first to put rotating bezel on outside of watch commercially and it was patented as unidirectional so all early Rolex models right up to the late 70's or early 80s were bidirectional.

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It's all true. Especially if it's on WUS.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Who discovered America?

Columbus?

Wait.. Weren't the Vikings there first? We have proof!!

Oh! Oh! The Chinese have maps! They came first!

What the heck.... are you talking about? Discovered? The locals were there waiting for them all!

Bottom line..
It doesn't matter who was technically first, really.

It matters who was the first to market it to the world. Who opened it up to the world.

I think we can all agree that Rolex is "Columbus".

Please excuse spelling errors...I'm not very smart.
 
#17 ·
I agree, we are talking watch history that is all, I have already learned a bit today on this subject from this thread. Nobody is being rude, just an interesting discussion.
Back on topic, has anyone found any pics of the early watches we are talking about, I would really like to see the first Squale diving watch as I do have a soft spot for them. Did the fist Squale not have a rotating bezel or screw down crown?
Chris
 
L
#23 ·
Something tells me Rolex was the first to use the iconic Mercedes hands. Therefore, everyone is homaging a Rolex Submariner including Squale. We'd all like to re-write the history books and make an entry-level watch company the "OG" for their own agendas, but Rolex won. If you don't believe me, look at their balance sheet.

I have no dog in the fight(Rolex, BP, Squale, Panerai, etc.), therefore I'm best equipped to view the simple answer here.
 
#25 ·
Level.5x said:
Something tells me Rolex was the first to use the iconic Mercedes hands. Therefore, everyone is homaging a Rolex Submariner including Squale. We'd all like to re-write the history books and make an entry-level watch company the "OG" for their own agendas, but Rolex won. If you don't believe me, look at their balance sheet.

I have no dog in the fight(Rolex, BP, Squale, Panerai, etc.), therefore I'm best equipped to view the simple answer here.
Click to expand...
The first commercial dive watches were made it seems from the early 50's, watches that ticked all the boxes, Squale was produced before the Rolex version, Rolex invented the screw down crown (learned today :) ). A lot more to a watch than hands, and I am not convinced Rolex were the first to use those hands either, but stand to be corrected.
Chris
 
#29 ·
Ard said:
There are as many answers to this as there are ways to.............



This one for the Desk Divers out there :)



Sorry to make light of such a serious topic but there are those out here happily wearing their Homage's who don't care.
Click to expand...
It is not about proving anything or making any point, this is an interesting history of dive watches. There is a lot of misinformation on the net, but here folks have provided some great information and some great pics too. Where it all started and who inputted what to the design we all love (Homage or not) is really interesting.
Chris
 
#33 ·
Silly topic to debate. It is very difficult to find a watch that is truly 100% unique in design. Doesn't matter to consumers who came out with want first...If these companies are not concerned or making claims..Why are we ? Pffft..Just buy what appeals to the individual and be done with it.

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#43 ·
Isn't the OP the person who likes making posts about what terrible value Rolex is? For someone who doesn't like the brand, he sure likes talking about it.

Do you occasionally find yourself, you know, looking at a Sub and having bad thoughts? Maybe the verboten attraction of a glidelock bracelet is driving you crazy? Or is it the thought of a battered, rugged Milsub arriving in your life and sweeping you off your feet?

Forbidden, unrequited love is the worst, man. I feel for you.
 
#45 ·
No need to be rude, I am not rude in any of my post you dont need to be either (lets keep this a nice debate). I dont dislike Rolex, actually I like most dive watches. I own expensive watches and my great grandfather made watches. I actually think the sub design is a great watch, but I think it is recently too expensive (RECENTLY NOTE).. Back to this thread, too much re dive watches is Homage this or that, the reality is 10 or so diver watches resulted in a progression to what we have today. Not against Omega, Rolex or others, they all contributed.
Chris
 
#47 ·
The Affordables forum maybe isn't the ideal place - as you may tell from some of the reactions, this kind of thread (along with the previous 'Rolex et al are overpriced') do tend to sound more like Rolex-bashing through a chip on the shoulder than intended.

As members have also mentioned, this subject has been covered many times and it is generally not definitive. It tends to come down to personal opinion about which innovations were really important and where the line is between copying and just not having any other good ways to do something.
 
#50 · (Edited)
Bradjhomes said:
The Affordables forum maybe isn't the ideal place - as you may tell from some of the reactions, this kind of thread (along with the previous 'Rolex et al are overpriced') do tend to sound more like Rolex-bashing through a chip on the shoulder than intended.

As members have also mentioned, this subject has been covered many times and it is generally not definitive. It tends to come down to personal opinion about which innovations were really important and where the line is between copying and just not having any other good ways to do something.
Click to expand...
No disrespect intended, but we are on page 5 of an interesting thread and not everyone shares you view. I have honestly learned lot and before these last few posts nobody has been rude or disrespectful, I have not for sure. When I started this thread and the one before I did not know what I know now. I still think Rolex are way too expensive that aside, I have done no wrong in asking questions I have asked and I have been rude to nobody. I am not aware of previous threads on this topic and this topic has been for me at least an education, some great pics ( Omega pic is amazing!) and some great info has been posted. Most of the posts on this thread have been on the history of divers which IMO is very interesting, I would still like to see a pic of an early Squale if anyone has one and any info re what they had or didnt and any info about other companies divers at the time. Also how can it be wrong to talk about watch history on a watch forum? This thread has just been about diver watch history and who did what which is very interesting.
Chris
 
#49 ·
Panerai made dive watches before any of the other companies mentioned and actually for a time used Rolex movements so if you really think about it the way you have described then ALL dive watches are homages to Panerai. Well that's my .02 at least
 
#52 ·
Panerai didn't make the 1930's dive watches , Rolex did it for them. It was based off a Rolex square watch at the time but needed to be 47mm so the Italian Navy divers could see it in diving conditions. The iconic crown guard was added later. Panerai is more like a brother to Rolex , than distant cousin.
Image
from the web

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#55 ·
Pocket watches (47mm) with soldering used to attach the lug bars began the evolution. In the 1930's men used pocket watches . During the war it was easier to see the time with the watch attached to your wrist. So watches were converted from pocket to wrist.
Image


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#56 · (Edited)
Many of your posts refer to Squale, claim Squale was first, somehow include Squale. What's your source? Are you employed by Squale? Do you own one? Shareholder?

Just because there are five pages don't make it interesting. There are better threads out there on this very subject. I tend to look at them because I get bored, and these titles usually suggest some sort of troll. Not that you are a troll, or trolling. But I can be a cynic.
 
#57 ·
copperjohn said:
Many of your posts refer to Squale, claim Squale was first, somehow include Squale. What's your source? Are you employed by Squale? Do you own one? Shareholder?

Just because there are five pages don't make it interesting. There are better threads out there on this very subject. I tend to look at them because I get bored, and these titles usually suggest some sort of troll. Not that you are a troll, or trolling. But I can be a cynic.
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I suspect this may be a very difficult thing to prove/disprove.
The information is sketchy at best. For years they made cases for other companys producing dive watches.
And Blancpain were certainly one of them, but finding out every single brand and model they supplied might well prove impossible.
But the did supply cases (at some point) for the Blancpain and Doxa. So it's certainly worth mentioning them. But it might take plenty of googling to get any real specifics.

Squale Watches
 
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