Pretty sweet! I had the later version of this one.

Cheers!

Dan

 

Great post, and I like the way you've kitted yours out. Handwound chronos are darned rare these days (Speedmaster excepted), and this is easily the most distinguished.

 

Nice write-up. Thanks.

I can't contribute any pics as I haven't got one of these beasties (yet). I'm really interested in seeing one of these up close.

Dave

 

Thanks for the reactions.
I hope a few owners will step forward. I've seen a couple on this forum so they are there.

Pretty sweet! I had the later version of this one.

Cheers!

Dan
Attached Thumbnails

You had and resold it Dan ? Do you remember if it was caliber 420Z ?
Do they appear in your catalogs ?

Handwound chronos are darned rare these days (Speedmaster excepted), and this is easily the most distinguished.

Interesting comparison. It's difficult to beat the design of the Omega Speedmaster. And I'm not technical enough to make a comparison between the qualities of Omega cal. 861 and Zenith cal. 420. Omega cal. 861 is definitely a great movement (why else would they still be making it after 42 years). Surely Zenith cal. 420 has great potential as well, particularly as an elegant dress watch. It is thinner than Omega 861 (5,7 mm instead of 6,87 mm).

 

I must admit that I never really liked the "Prime" (or EP HW) Cal. 420. One reason is that I still think of the El Primero as the very first automatic chronograph in the world - and not only when it was brought out, one of the best, decades ahead of its time. It seems pointless to reduce it to an ordinary hand wound chronograph. The second thing is that (like the Lemania 321/Omega 861), the bridge layout is a little modern and industrial. Nothing to compare aesthetically with the old Venus/Valjoux chronos with their curved chronograph bridge, brakes, etc. I'd rather see the rotor on top.....

Hartmut Richter

 

I must admit that I never really liked the "Prime" (or EP HW) Cal. 420. One reason is that I still think of the El Primero as the very first automatic chronograph in the world - and not only when it was brought out, one of the best, decades ahead of its time. It seems pointless to reduce it to an ordinary hand wound chronograph. The second thing is that (like the Lemania 321/Omega 861), the bridge layout is a little modern and industrial. Nothing to compare aesthetically with the old Venus/Valjoux chronos with their curved chronograph bridge, brakes, etc. I'd rather see the rotor on top.....

Dear Hartmut, I do sense some prejudice here. You are not talking from the personal experience of having owned one, but rather from the point of view of someone who has made up a few reasons why not to get one

It seems pointless to reduce it to an ordinary hand wound chronograph.

On the contrary, I can see several good reasons. Why not use all the possibilities of this excellent movement ?

To some it may seem pointless to have a version with triple date and moonphase; still that is an interesting possibility of this versatile movement; and so is a hand-wound version another interesting possibility. Only, instead of more complicated, this version is more simplified. To make a handwound version of the first automatic chronograph, seems to me a good example of "thinking out of the box".

More good reasons : the movement is slimmer and allows for a more elegant casing. Servicing the watch is easier. The cost of the watch is less. One may also prefer a hand-wound watch over an automatic watch for reasons of reliability. And so on and on !

The second thing is that ... the bridge layout is a little modern and industrial. Nothing to compare aesthetically with the old Venus/Valjoux chronos ...I'd rather see the rotor on top

So you are saying that you like the automatic version, because the rotor hides the bridge layout . Let's face it, this is the El Primero. Agreed, it is not so pleasing to the eye as the curved bridges of old Venus, Valjoux, or even Landeron movements. But what does that matter, if it is the best handwound or automatic chronograph ever made ? I find it has a no-nonsense look, and even somebody who knows very little about watches, can have a look through the transparent caseback (something which you couldn't do with old Venus etc. chronographs) and that person will immediately see that this is a first class movement.

 

Suum cuique - each to their own! By all means, buy one if you like. For myself, if thinking about a manual chronograph, I'd still rather go for something else. E.g. the Cal. 143 (based on the Excelsior Park Cal. Expark 40 - with 24 hour hand in form of a "North" hand), or something with a Venus 211 (chronograph with early large date feature - quite zany: after the 31st of the month, you get the 32nd, the 33rd, .... the 39th, the 00th [!!!] and finally the 1st; you end up having to correct manually quite a bit, but it really is a piece of horlogical history, that one!), or an older tricompax (also found in some Zenith chronos as the Cal. 136 HC). The main reason for choosing the EP HW would probably be the date feature for me.....

Hartmut Richter

 

Suum cuique - each to their own! By all means, buy one if you like. For myself, if thinking about a manual chronograph, I'd still rather go for something else. E.g. the Cal. 143 (based on the Excelsior Park Cal. Expark 40 - with 24 hour hand in form of a "North" hand), or something with a Venus 211 (chronograph with early large date feature - quite zany: after the 31st of the month, you get the 32nd, the 33rd, .... the 39th, the 00th [!!!] and finally the 1st; you end up having to correct manually quite a bit, but it really is a piece of horlogical history, that one!), or an older tricompax (also found in some Zenith chronos as the Cal. 136 HC). The main reason for choosing the EP HW would probably be the date feature for me.....

Hartmut Richter

You forget the Omega Speedy Pro moon watch. What was that, a cal 321? HW chronographs always have a warm place in my heart. ;-)

Dan

 

Thanks for the observations Hartmut, you mention some interesting chronographs there, which sound very attractive to me. Speaking of chronographs with date, this is a link to an interesting article about the first chronographs with date function. I'll share it here for everybody on the forum who is interested enough to deal with a French only article : Page Modèles (hosted by invenitetfecit.com)

So I understand what you mean, I also love old chronographs like Venus and Valjoux. I wouldn't mind a nice Universal Geneve Tricompax for instance, or a 1960's Zenith chronograph. The Zenith Prime is actually one of the most recent watches in my collection (if not the most recent). I'm normally for old watches, at least thirty years old.

But the Zenith Prime had a nice classic appeal. And it is a good entry level for Zenith El Primero watches... So I got one for christmas some time ago. I'm still very happy with that purchase.

Speaking of the history of chronographs with date... which was the first automatic chronograph with day and date : surely that was Seiko with their caliber 6139 ? I find it odd that this fact is never mentioned. Seiko cal. 6138-6139 was in many ways a world's first and decades ahead of their time. But nobody ever mentions that they were the first automatic chronographs to have both day and date function.

To return to Zenith cal. 420 : actually Zenith waited quite some time to create a hand-wound version of the El Primero, if you consider that the same was done already in 1977 or so : Valjoux 7765, non automatic version of the Valjoux 7755 (date only). Valjoux made several handwound versions and perhaps Zenith followed their example.

It would be interesting to see the birth of a Zenith El Primero handwound version with moonphase....

 

Yes, the moon watch is a little special - but only because it went to the moon! Technically, it is just a three register chrono without date. Still, for sheer ruggedness (beat Rolex three times! - not that that's too difficult!!!:-d), you could place it on the list.

As for the Seiko, that was indeed the first day-date automatic chrono. It certainly beat the second one to that title: the Zenith Cal. 3019 PHF. There were, of course, several manual ones before hand, although the date was usually by central hand and the whole thing came in conjunction with a full calender ± moonphase.

Agreed, that is something we haven't had yet: a manual EP with full calender and moonphase. Until we see a manual EP back, full stop, we are probably not likely to see one.....

Hartmut Richter

 

What was the interval between the 3019 PHC and PHF? I see in Rossler that the first PHF-engined watch wasn't sold until 1971, but do you know the specific evolution of the PHF?

 

No, I can't really add to that. My guess is that the full calender and moonphase, since it had been realized so frequently in earlier chronographs (Valjoux, Universal "Tricompax", etc.) was the most obvious extension of this excellent movement so Zenith set about that first of all. The length of time taken to realize this (1.5-2 years) suggests that this was not planned right from the start. However, all this is unconfirmed.

Hartmut Richter

 

I have the 420Z and I wear it almost daily -- one of my very favorite watches. A photo is posted below. I also bought the Zenith Elite HW (Movement 680).

 

Thank you Orahu. Congratulations with that El Primero HW. Interesting that you also got the Elite HW. I just noticed the handwound version of the Elite movement in a catalog from 1998. Personally I'm not familiar with the Elite, but it is interesting to see a handwound version of that as well.

In the same catalog I saw that Zenith made a "PocketMaster" 18 K gold "Prime" pocket watch with the El Primero HW cal. 420.

This pw seems to have been the only "Prime" remaining in the 1998 catalog. RRP was 6.750,- DM in 1998.

Hartmut, maybe the pw version of the El Primero HW could be the one for you :-! ?

Here is a scan :

 

Hartmut, maybe the pw version of the El Primero HW could be the one for you :-! ?

I doubt it - if I would go for a Zenith pocket chronograph, it would be one with the old 19''' chronograph calibre. Preferably like the one in Rössler's book: savonette in gold case, with enamel painting on front and back (pp. 76-77). Or alternatively one with chronograph and repeater.....

Hartmut Richter

 

Here is my Zenith prime 420. I love it.

b-)

 

Here is my Zenith prime 420. I love it.

b-)

Very nice and good photos!
Thanks for shaing!

Dan

 

I would even say more : great pictures and thank you for sharing !

 

Hello all,

some days ago, I`ve got a Zenith Prime from ebay.
It`s a little bit special, because it`s a steel watch but engravings on the bottom and between the lugs shows us, that the watch should be "Gold Plated 20 M".
Maybe there was a preowner who removed the gold plaque. The man who sells the watch to me, did not know anything about that.

Now the pictures:

I`ve seen these hands before only on watches with the black dial.... ?

Here we can see the engraving "Gold plated......":

I think the first part of the reference-number displays the material of the case (20 = 20 µm gold, 01 = stainless steel). Anybody here, who knows about that?

Very nice movement, isn`t it..... ?

Although there are some unclear things with this watch, I love it....
It`s very unostentatious and you can wear it with a lot of clothings (Jeans, suit...).

Best regards an I hope you enjoy the pictures

Frank

 

very classic and clean watch

 

Thank you Georges!

Best regards
Frank

 

some days ago, I`ve got a Zenith Prime from ebay.
It`s a little bit special, because it`s a steel watch but engravings on the bottom and between the lugs shows us, that the watch should be "Gold Plated 20 M".
Maybe there was a preowner who removed the gold plaque. The man who sells the watch to me, did not know anything about that.

Dear Frank,

sorry for the late reply, as I was away on a holiday.

Your watch looks very nice.

The white dial with markers on the hours is correct for the stainless steel Prime.

The goldplated Prime I've seen for sale has a white dial with Roman numerals and golden lined subregisters. It also has gold colour hands.

It's very strange that your watch also has 'goldplated' engravings between the lugs (are you sure about this ?). Otherwise it would have been possible that just the caseback had been switched.

Another thing is that it seems that your watch has the correct hands for the black dial stainless steel Prime.

So it may have been that your watch was put together from different spare parts. It still looks very nice and the movement is great.

In attachment for the record a pic of the goldplated Prime.

 

Thank you very much for your reply!
Yes, it`s a very special watch and first I thought, I`ll give the watch back to the seller. But later I`ve decided to keep it by myself.
I think, you are completely right with your observations... The hands are these from the black dial watches and normally the gold plated watches had the roman numerals and golden hands....
Today I took some macro-fotos from the engraving between the lugs. It`s in fact "Plaque G 20 M".
I will show the pictures later here in this thread.
So, I have to suspect, that my watch consists from several parts and is a "Bastel-Wastel" what we say in Germany.
But the watch looks very nice, the movement is without any signs of use.
Is here somebody who knows what will appear, if I send the watch to Zenith for revision?
First of all I want to have the genuine hands for the white dial. After that it will be a perfect stainless-steel watch for me.

Best regards
Frank

 

Hello Frank,

this kind of

"Bastel-Wastel"

has the advantage that it can be in very good to excellent condition. Does it keep good time ?
Why would you even take the trouble to change the hands...they are very nice.

best regards

 

Hello sempervivens,
the condition is really excellent.... The watch is a little bit fast: 7-10 seconds per day but I can live with that without regulation...
I don`t want to change the hands until the watch needs a service.
When the upload to the picture-server is done, I will post some new pics.
I`ve bought a original buckle and a alligator strap for the watch because there were not original ones.

Best regards
Frank

 

Hello sempervivens,
the condition is really excellent.... The watch is a little bit fast: 7-10 seconds per day but I can live with that without regulation...
I don`t want to change the hands until the watch needs a service.
When the upload to the picture-server is done, I will post some new pics.
I`ve bought a original buckle and a alligator strap for the watch because there were not original ones.

Best regards
Frank

Very good Frank, excellent thinking. Official Zenith servicing and new hands may be costly but worthwhile and anyway you can probably enjoy the watch many years before it will need a service.

Regulating it to perfect time keeping should not be a problem and since it is easy to do for a watchmaker you can consider to have that done sooner or later. First you may want to try it out a little longer to see how it settles down.

best regards

 

Here is a picture of the white dial (stainless steel) Prime from a watch magazine dated May 1996 :

The Prime was received quite well by the readers of the magazin. One contributor had bought his Prime in November 1995, and commented : "Beautiful, elegant watch with great nostalgic looks." The transparent caseback is also much appreciated.

I'll repeat it : the automatic El Primero was the thinnest automatic chronograph in the world; the handwound caliber 420 is even thinner.

IMHO it is the best (or one of the best) handwound chronographs ever made.

 

noticed another small difference between Zenith El Primero HW and Zenith Prime : the Zenith El Primero HW should be water resistant up to 100 m, so you could go for a swim with it. The Zenith Prime is just 'water resistant'.