These movements have been around since 2013 and I still have not heard of one where the plastic parts failed.

If made correctly, a plastic escapement can be advantageous. It's inherently antimagnetic and self-lubricating.

These are perfectly serviceable movements. Teardown process is exactly the same as a standard 2824-2. The main obstacle could be getting access to the updated parts (mainspring barrel, balance, escapement), but that's a service problem, not a hardware problem.

To me this just seems like clickbait FUD from a disgruntled watchmaker.

 

These are perfectly serviceable movements.

However, since the movements are so cheap to manufacture (I deliberately use the term “cheap” and not “inexpensive” here), the C07.XXX and C15.111 movements are no longer repaired or serviced by the Swatch Group brands, but completely replaced. In the case of the C15.111 aka “Swissmatic” or “Sistem51” movements, the Swatch Group actually has no choice but to completely replace them, as the movement is completely riveted and the only screw only holds the rotor – meaning that the movement cannot be dismantled at all. With the ETA C07.XXX, which is based on the ETA 2824, the Swatch Group takes the advantages of mechanical movements, such as sustainability, ad absurdum, as they could be repaired but are still replaced.
Incidentally, this is one of the reasons why I don't like the Powermatic 80 (Caliber 80, H-10 or Caliber 763) movements and why I give watches with these movements a wide berth.

 

Had to Google FUD.

 

In have a C07.111 in my PRX.

I had very low expectations of it due to the nonsense that is being peddled on forums such as this. But it turns out to be one of my most accurate movements (+0.5 spd on the wrist) and it’s super consistent across the entire power reserve.

And that’s consistent with many other reports on the forum. It’s a great movement. Much better than the comparable competition from Seiko or Sellita.

Factory service cost from Tissot is comparable to the price of a local watchmaker’s so I’ll have it serviced there when the time comes.

 

Same here. I was very critical of the concept in the past, but after buying my Certina Powermatic 80 (C07.611) I've been very pleasantly surprised by its performance. I check whatever watch I'm wearing against GPS time at least once a day and I'm always amazed at how accurate it continues to be day after day, easily within 0 to +2 spd. It has far exceeded my expectations.

 

I don't think the guy who made the video has any knowledge if how polymers are used in industrial applications. He seems to be focused on only one aspect and that is it must be cheap. The watch itself is cheap to buy. Buy it pre owned and it's even cheaper to buy. He doesn't seem to be aware of any of the properties of the materials and why they are chosen, through out many industrial applications, and he doesn't seem to be aware of a single failure of this product that he could show the viewer. Seems to have no engineering awareness what so ever. I would be fairly comfortable to accept the product will fail early in warranty period ,if it fails at all. Then the customer would get the watch replaced by by the manufacturer, Otherwise it will likely last the life of the product and then the movement is either completely replaced or the whole watch is recycled. The common detonator in this equation, which also is the likely source of the presenters bias, is that there isn't really a job for watchmakers when we automate the assembly of the movement, And it will not be disassembled and repaired multiple times in the life span of the watch. You certainly can't say you never actually own a tissot you merely look after it for the next generation. Please! It's a watch which was meant to be recycled just as your last automobile was sent to the recycler.

 

You could say that about a Tissot... just the movement will always be new every several years.

There's something to that in its own way. Lol...

 

Is it "High Tech"? Perhaps so, however it's not particularly modern.

This is a 1970s Tissot Astrolon plastic movement, the cal. 2250, Astrolon or Sytal, ("Systeme Total d'Autolubrification"). Many of the parts are plastic, including the synthetic pallet fork and escape wheel. Sound familiar?

This is a circa-1973 Tissot watch using one of the Astrolon movements. Note the "Autolub" (automatic lubrication) text on the dial, referring to the self-lubricating nature of the movement. This is one of the more conventional watch models with a metal case - other models also used synthetic cases.

Step forward in time to the mid-2000s and we have this Swatch Irony Body & Soul automatic. The movement is a skeletonised version of the 21 jewel ETA cal. 2841-1 automatic, an economy movement used in the Swatch mechanicals.

Below is a close-up look at the plastic pallet fork used in this version of the movement. Again, that looks quite familiar. The escape wheel here is metal. (Note that not all of the 2841/2 movements in Swatch watches used the synthetic escapement components. I've seen examples with conventional metal forks and ruby jewels).

The synthetic escapement parts, very similar to those of the Astrolons, showed up again more recently in the 15 jewel ETA cal. C01.211 economy automatic chronograph movement introduced in Swatch and Tissot watches in 2009. Not only the plastic fork and pallets, but also the synthetic escape wheel was again in use. It is also notable that the cal. C01.211 appears to be in part based upon the earlier Lemania cal. 5100 chrono movement which itself used a number of synthetic parts, albeit not in the escapement. The Swatch Group is also the owner of the Lemania trademark.

(Image by The Swatch Group).

More recently Swatch has again used the same or very similar synthetic escapement parts, along with some some significant automated manufacturing methods, to produce the new SISTEM51 ETA cal. C10111 automatics in their efforts to produce economical, maintenance-free, mechanical watches. The SISTEM51 is named for the movement consisting of only 51 parts, significantly less than a equivalent conventionally designed and produced automatic movement. The 1970s Astrolon movements had a very similar number of parts, only 52, although these were manual-wind movements. The Astrolons were semi-automatically assembled and, like the System51, required no lubrication.

Thus we can trace over 50 years of development and production of mechanical movements using synthetic escapement parts aimed at the economy watch market, from the 1970s Astrolon to the SISTEM51 of today, achieved through the use of unconventional materials and innovative manufacturing and assembly methods.

(Image by The Swatch Group).

 

Is it "High Tech"? Perhaps so, however it's not particularly modern.

This is a 1970s Tissot Astrolon plastic movement, the cal. 2250, Astrolon or Sytal, ("Systeme Total d'Autolubrification"). Many of the parts are plastic, including the synthetic pallet fork and escape wheel. Sound familiar?

View attachment 18094748

View attachment 18094755

This is a circa-1973 Tissot watch using one of the Astrolon movements. Note the "Autolub" (automatic lubrication) text on the dial, referring to the self-lubricating nature of the movement. This is one of the more conventional watch models with a metal case - other models also used synthetic cases.

View attachment 18094775

Step forward in time to the mid-2000s and we have this Swatch Irony Body & Soul automatic. The movement is a skeletonised version of the 21 jewel ETA cal. 2841-1 automatic, an economy movement used in the Swatch mechanicals.

View attachment 18094776

View attachment 18094777

Below is a close-up look at the plastic pallet fork used in this version of the movement. Again, that looks quite familiar. The escape wheel here is metal. (Note that not all of the 2841/2 movements in Swatch watches used the synthetic escapement components. I've seen examples with conventional metal forks and ruby jewels).

View attachment 18094778

The synthetic escapement parts, very similar to those of the Astrolons, showed up again more recently in the 15 jewel ETA cal. C01.211 economy automatic chronograph movement introduced in Swatch and Tissot watches in 2009. Not only the plastic fork and pallets, but also the synthetic escape wheel was again in use. It is also notable that the cal. C01.211 appears to be in part based upon the earlier Lemania cal. 5100 chrono movement which itself used a number of synthetic parts, albeit not in the escapement. The Swatch Group is also the owner of the Lemania trademark.

View attachment 18094782
(Image by The Swatch Group).

More recently Swatch has again used the same or very similar synthetic escapement parts, along with some some significant automated manufacturing methods, to produce the new SISTEM51 ETA cal. C10111 automatics in their efforts to produce economical, maintenance-free, mechanical watches. The SISTEM51 is named for the movement consisting of only 51 parts, significantly less than a equivalent conventionally designed and produced automatic movement. The 1970s Astrolon movements had a very similar number of parts, only 52, although these were manual-wind movements. The Astrolons were semi-automatically assembled and, like the System51, required no lubrication.

Thus we can trace over 50 years of development and production of mechanical movements using synthetic escapement parts aimed at the economy watch market, from the 1970s Astrolon to the SISTEM51 of today, achieved through the use of unconventional materials and innovative manufacturing and assembly methods.

View attachment 18094793
(Image by The Swatch Group).

Thank you for the history lesson on plastic/polymere parts in Swatch group watches. One question: How durable have all those movements proven to be over the years?

 

I saw this on YouTube and wondered why he was so angry.

I don't know if the pallet fork is "plastic" or "ceramic" or "carbon", I don't really know, but synthetic escapements have been in the works for awhile.

Now, if it is bargain basement plastic used in food trays or plastic model planes, yeah, I get it, but I do think that a teflon coated "plastic" part is not such a crime. These kinds of "lubricated" parts are used in many industrial, aerospace, and other applications where you do not want to have another type of lubrication that can evaporate, lose viscosity, are subject to unusual pressures or temperatures, or other atmospheric conditions.

But, yeah, it's not a "traditional" escapement.

 

(synthetic does not equate plastic right? or do abs, teflon etc all come under the umbrella of plastics.. which are considered synthetic?)

Teflon, ABS, Delrin, Hesalite... all plastics. All synthetic materials.

Plastic doesn't necessarily mean cheap, flimsy, or corner-cutting. Sometimes it is indeed the best material for the job.

 

I think some of the frustration about all these Powermatic movements is from how well ETA movements were made. AFAIK, there were no non serviceable parts in the ETA2824 and if Swatch had stuck with those old workhorses, we would be happy. But no, they just had to cut costs, limit who can service them (with the new C07 movements, you need Swatch tools to regulate them) and reduce it to 3Hz to make it look like a Seiko (nothing wrong with the 4R movements but you can buy those for less than 50 bucks).

 

Yes, there are non-serviceable parts in a 2824.

Plenty of very high-end movements that operate at 3Hz, too. Or slower (Moser uses several 2.5Hz movements).

 

He said the only word I need to hear to avoid it. Plastic.

 

Stay away from Lemanias. And any of the common Seiko movements, too. They all have plastic parts.

 

I don't think it matters if plastics are used so long as the watch is accurate and last a reasonable amount of time.
Some folks might site the heirloom factor of an all metal watch, but from what I've seen, the grand-kids will most likely hock the watch for quick cash once Grandpa is dead.
Besides, I don't know many folks who wear the same watch for more than a decade.

 

On a sidenote, most Powermatics are all-metal. Only the .111 movements have the synthetic escapement. Amd those are only used in the cheapest sub-€1000 watches from Tissot and maybe Certina.

Hardly heirloom watches. More like the typical horological snack for people on this forum. So it’s all a bunch of fake outrage for clicks or an excuse for Seiko fanbois to rant against the Swiss.

 

I've read that the Powermatic 80 is meant to be modular (so the whole movement doesn't need to be tossed out for service, just the escapement module I presume), but I'm not sure if that's true or not, or if it would even accomplish anything. Anybody know what I'm talking about?

 

I think what upsets people on how plastic is in the movement and non repairable movements in watches cost 800+ dollars is the time factor. I inherited two watches, one from my grandfather and another from my great grandfather. The pocket watch having it's movement replaced eats at the history of the watch. When people buy old mustangs or Camaros they don't swap in an LS engine because it is no longer original, even if it's better by all measures. I like that (even if a few gears and springs are replaced) it's still my great grandfather's original movement powering the watch.
Watches more than most things represent legacy, history and art.

 

I think what upsets people on how plastic is in the movement and non repairable movements in watches cost 800+ dollars is the time factor. I inherited two watches, one from my grandfather and another from my great grandfather. The pocket watch having it's movement replaced eats at the history of the watch. When people buy old mustangs or Camaros they don't swap in an LS engine because it is no longer original, even if it's better by all measures. I like that (even if a few gears and springs are replaced) it's still my great grandfather's original movement powering the watch.
Watches more than most things represent legacy, history and art.

The PM80 is repairable. Why do people keep perpetuating the non-repairability myth? You just can’t do it yourself because of the free sprung balance wheel design. But that doesn’t make it non-repairable.

 

Some quality folding knives use a thin Teflon washer (on top of phosphor bronze washers) where the blade rides against the pivot. There is a lot of friction every time one opens and closes a knife, and apparently the thin Teflon washers hold up well, are durable, and don't require much lubrication...

 

Is there any 3 hand-mass-produced automatic movement that would not be cheaper to replace than repair? I bet the production cost of a Rolex caliber 3230 is less than $400 if that - it could easily be swapped out for less than the service cost.

 

I suspect yes, even Rolex 3200 movements are produced at low enough cost per volume that they would be cheaper to replace than repair.

However, I'm sure they do actually repair them. As a luxury brand, they can charge the customer to service them the expensive way. Also the movements are serialized, so they can't replace them without making a record of it.

I don't think new Rolex movements are available for sale in the open market, though, so it's hard to say how much they would actually cost if they were. Independent service centers have no choice but to service them.

 

There's got to be rated duty cycle for the pallet fork and escapement available somewhere.. doesn't engineering involve this data point? It is a moving part after all.

 

Just wanted to clear up a few things...

These movements are serviceable, and parts are available just like other movements are - if your local independent watchmaker is Swatch group certified, they would have access to the parts and tools needed. People who are saying that can't be service are confusing them with the Sistem 51 movements.

The synthetic escapements are lubricated, just like a regular Swiss lever escapement is lubricated. There's a specific Moebius lubricant used on these - TH7-001. So the idea that these are relying on "self-lubricating" plastics is really not the case.

I don't know of any specific issues with the synthetic escapements wearing out, but keep in mind that escapements with traditional hard materials also wear. You can see the wear in the impulse surface of this pallet fork jewel:



This is probably the worst wear I've ever seen on a pallet fork jewel:



Escape wheel teeth also wear, just from normal use, but even more so when there's damage to the pallet fork jewels, which are hard but also brittle. In this example this chip in this jewel:



Lead to a line down the middle of the escape wheel teeth - half the tooth was being scraped away:



In this example, these chips in the pallet fork jewel:



Lead to these grooves being cut into the escape wheel teeth:



So "harder" materials don't necessarily mean longer life. The loads in this area are large given the surface area of contact, so damage can happen even with hard materials. Steel on jewels causes wear all the time - pivots wear on wheels all the time when running in jewels - some examples:







I regularly see cap jewels for the balance that have had divots drilled into them by a pivot of a balance, that is all of 8/100ths of a mm in diameter...



So what people may have experienced with materials in the regular world, doesn't always apply when things are as small as what we have inside a watch. If the materials are picked properly, then they will last an appropriate length of time before needing replacement, so long as the watch is taken care of.

Cheers, Al

 

Just wanted to clear up a few things...

These movements are serviceable, and parts are available just like other movements are - if your local independent watchmaker is Swatch group certified, they would have access to the parts and tools needed. People who are saying that can't be service are confusing them with the Sistem 51 movements.

The synthetic escapements are lubricated, just like a regular Swiss lever escapement is lubricated. There's a specific Moebius lubricant used on these - TH7-001. So the idea that these are relying on "self-lubricating" plastics is really not the case.

I don't know of any specific issues with the synthetic escapements wearing out, but keep in mind that escapements with traditional hard materials also wear. You can see the wear in the impulse surface of this pallet fork jewel:



This is probably the worst wear I've ever seen on a pallet fork jewel:



Escape wheel teeth also wear, just from normal use, but even more so when there's damage to the pallet fork jewels, which are hard but also brittle. In this example this chip in this jewel:



Lead to a line down the middle of the escape wheel teeth - half the tooth was being scraped away:



In this example, these chips in the pallet fork jewel:



Lead to these grooves being cut into the escape wheel teeth:



So "harder" materials don't necessarily mean longer life. The loads in this area are large given the surface area of contact, so damage can happen even with hard materials. Steel on jewels causes wear all the time - pivots wear on wheels all the time when running in jewels - some examples:







I regularly see cap jewels for the balance that have had divots drilled into them by a pivot of a balance, that is all of 8/100ths of a mm in diameter...



So what people may have experienced with materials in the regular world, doesn't always apply when things are as small as what we have inside a watch. If the materials are picked properly, then they will last an appropriate length of time before needing replacement, so long as the watch is taken care of.

Cheers, Al

Real life knowledge is hard to beat. Thank you for your expertise in the matter.
I think some people assume older tech or manufacturing is automatically better than new methods or materials but that simply isn’t true. We learn from our experiences and improve upon them.
Very interesting conversation.

 

A thank you from me to @Archer for adding his practical watchmaking observations to this thread (as also the information about synthetic escapements being lubricated as well). It does make sense that when the harder pallet jewels contact/rub against the metal escape wheel that the relatively softer (but tougher/more malleable) metal would be more prone to surface abrasion/wear and the pallet jewel surface more prone to chipping (or even cracking) over a long/longer period of time even with proper lubrication (more pronounced with insufficient lubrication).

I would definitely still be interested to see if there's any data available for synthetic escapements regarding cycles to failure and failure modes.

 

I would definitely still be interested to see if there's any data available for synthetic escapements regarding cycles to failure and failure modes.

This data doesn’t exist out in the open for any component...

That's interesting. I'd always thought one of the reasons for using plastic parts is not needing any additional lubricant. Do you know anything about the properties of that lubricant or of the plastic used in the parts themselves, or how susceptible they are to damage when that lubricant wears off?

The lubricant properties are available at the Moebius site...

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/sites/default/files/security_sheet/tinf_th7_en.pdf

The “SC” suffix stands for sans colour...

 

I personally don’t see a use case for these movements, where quartz is not the better option.

If its for you, knock yourself out.

BTW, Kalle’s (from the video) issue with the watch was the deceptive advertising.

 

What's deceptive? "High-tech" doesn't actually mean anything.

 

YouTube clickbait nonsense. The guy is just trying to make some extra pocket money from YouTube for more trips to Thailand.

 

Take that second pallet stone. It would not even be capable of transferring power in that state

That particular watch came in completely dry, and not in a running state.

I promised to follow up and here it is. Going to eat my words a bit here, and show you something at the same time...

Looking back on this, more details have come back to me (I service a lot of watches so the details sometimes get lost - that's my defense anyway!) and this one had quite the story. It was supposedly serviced by a "budget" watchmaker, and it did in fact run, but very poorly. Here is the movement in question - running in this pic:



Here before I opened it, I ran timing checks at full wind over 6 positions:



Results are not good - low balance amplitudes all around, and the Delta (difference between the fastest and slowest position - a measure of precision) is huge at 722 seconds per day:



Movement was completely dry as these photos show:





This is a good illustration of what dried up oils and debris look like under the cap jewel:



Here's the escapement - dried oils and crap all over - the escape wheel teeth though look okay from what I can see in this photo:



Mainspring was set - old blued steel spring - these should always be replaced with a modern white alloy spring:



So contrary to my initial statement, and your expectations, this watch ran with that much wear in the pallet fork jewels, so it was certainly able to transmit some power. It didn't run well, but it ran.

I've been doing this a while and some days I'm still surprised at the stuff I see with these watches coming in...the customer that sent me this one sent me another that was serviced by the same watchmaker (this one had actually been serviced) and it ran even worse - the Delta on that one was 1055 seconds per day!

Cheers, Al

 

...the customer that sent me this one sent me another that was serviced by the same watchmaker (this one had actually been serviced) and it ran even worse - the Delta on that one was 1055 seconds per day!

Cheers, Al

That's.....THAT'S 17.5 MINUTES! Holy crap!

 

Another point on plastic in movements (@Archer correct me if my memory is wrong) - I seem to recall that the Omega Speedmaster 1861 movement had a plastic component in movement. However, if a sapphire caseback was specified that plastic part was replaced with a metal one. I believe Omega was thinking that people would complain if they saw what was a perfectly adequate part made of plastic.

 

Yes, commonly referred to as a "brake" but the proper name is blocking lever. People will tell you things like it's made of special material called Delrin...here's what Omega's description of it is...

72208601726V2 | PLASTIC BLOCKING LEVER

 

It's not plastic, it's bioceramic!

 

I am a viewer of his work and he knows his stuff. I watched this vid and yeah I get his point. No jewels on the pallet fork, plastic escapement etc. but you know what? It works and works damn accurately.
I own a 40 mm one and it’s a tough, reliable watch. So as an owner do I care?
Not in the slightest. As an amateur watchmaker do I care? Nope.
Is it going to solve world hunger? Again I’m guessing no.